This could be ok or it could be a disaster! I have had both when buying property without an estate agent in Italy. I would suggest getting a guide to buying property in Italy and following it, identifying possible pitfalls and asking/checking yourself, directly with the relevant authorities. Friendly (seeming?) sellers may not know of problems or may be hiding them, with the onus on you to be careful - 'caveat emptor' originates as an expression in ancient Rome - "Let the buyer beware". If your Italian is not very good, then get the assistance of an English speaking lawyer would be my advice, even if only to look over the deed of sale in advance, if not to attend the signing with the notary. And for those who say that the notary's work should ensure there are no problems, well, all I can say is that I was told that as well, and it did not work out that way. 

I agree with Pamela. Unless you know what you are doing and you are ready to check all documents, you need a lawyer.

Thanks for the advice. I do speak very good Italian but I am struggling with some of the legal terms (I probably would in English too to be honest!) Can anyone recommend a good, resonably priced translation service as I would feel much more confident with the documents in English.

I'd say it's not so much the actual words in teh contract, but all the other stuff which you won't know because you don't know anything about the Italian conveyancing system.  For instance:

Will the surrounding farmers sign away their right to buy your land?

How do you know that the vendors are the only owners?

Who else may have rights over your property?

I think it is a requirement that all legal documents are translated to ensure you understand.  But on the principle that you don't know what you don't know - I'd want a professional to be involved.

Our house was also a private sale but we found it with the help of a house finding service who also guided us through the procedure. Maybe you could get advice from them at     www.Helloit.co.uk

I'm sorry . I dont know why I cant make this link live. 

Our house was also a private sale but we found it with the help of a house finding service who also guided us through the procedure. Maybe you could get advice from them at     www.Helloit.co.uk

I'm sorry . I dont know why I cant make this link live. 

Oh. It IS live. !

Thanks Alma, will lokk at them.

You dont seem to say where you are buying RitaRuth, I know of a good guy in Marche who has steered friends through the buying process and done all translations for them when an agent was not involved.

We're buying in Liguria, just north of La Spezia.

What is the consensus / opinion on not using a lawyer if the sale is being handled by a registered estate agent and if one speaks pretty good Italian and has experience of the process through having bought and sold before? We are soon to buy a house through a registered estate agent and I would appreciate the thoughts of those who have done this as we have only bought through 'finders' before. Thanks.  

We bought through a private sale and entrusted a lawyer to prepare the contracts for us - BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The lawyer we used did not do his job properly and now we potentially have a major problem - we have a new solicitor who seems to be doing a good job - but too early to tell as yet.  I agree re getting a book -  if I was doing it again I would still go through a lawyer but request in writing that they do the following things as Annec listed:-

Will the surrounding farmers sign away their right to buy your land?

How do you know that the vendors are the only owners?

Who else may have rights over your property?

And anything else that the book suggests and ask for copies of everything that they do so you know it has been done.  It may sound OTT but we assumed that instructing a lawyer to act on our behalf would mean that they would automatically do these things - some may ours didn't.  

Don't let it put you off though as thousands of people have sales go through no problem at all.  Our solicitor who is helping us now is based in Liguria in Ventimiglia - if you want her details please PM me

Good luck

We have been informed that we do not even need to use a solicitor. The buyers want to just use the notaio and the geometra. We were informed that once the initial agreement document was signed by both parties and and then stamped and signed by the notaio, it becomes a legal document. Is this right?

We are not excluding an agent. we stayed at the house, which was running as a B&B when we went to havea look around the area. The owners informed us that it was for sale and we fell in love with it and decided to buy.

The owners are English and have sold another property in his manner.

We have been informed that we do not even need to use a solicitor. The buyers want to just use the notaio and the geometra. We were informed that once the initial agreement document was signed by both parties and and then stamped and signed by the notaio, it becomes a legal document. Is this right?

We are not excluding an agent. we stayed at the house, which was running as a B&B when we went to havea look around the area. The owners informed us that it was for sale and we fell in love with it and decided to buy.

The owners are English and have sold another property in his manner.

Yes it's accurate that you don't need to use a solicitor - you can get the compromesso (the promise to buy) drawn up and then sign the final act (think it's called the rogito) in front of the notary all without the use of a solicitor.

You must make sure though that you know exactly what you are doing - the italian buying process is very different- if you're not going to use a solicitor I would suggest you find someone independant who understands the process and double check everything   

The bare minimum you need is a buyer, a seller, and a notaio.   Everything else is an optional.  As buyers you can choose the notaio, dont take the recommendation of the seller. Do you need a lawyer - not if its a straightfoward sale, no.  

Using a third party company - if they are not an estate agent (ie licenced and working legally in Italy) then you are chucking your money away.  You have no legal comeback of they make a pigs ear of it all and you end up ruined.  A buyers agent is that because they work illegally in ITaly or legally in the UK - they have no legal right to any commission and you're wasting your time paying them a fortune.

Do you need an agent - moot point.  Im an agent - and I cant imagine buying a property in Italy without an agent, knowing what I know now after 6 years.  The paperwork is mind-numbing and getting worse all the time.  Admittedly a good notaio will help alot - but the seller needs to provide alot of stuff now, adn the buyer needs to ask all the right questions.  Just because a Brit is selling doesnt make it a simple matter - in my experience some of the worst sellers (economical with the truth) were foreigners.   

Its not worth buying any old book - the law is constant flux you need one that is very recent - (mine obviously is the best!)    But basically it is possible to buy without an agent - if your ITalian is good and you are happy spending hours shunting from one office to another, getting copies of bits of paper that dont exist,  tracking down ancient rights of servitù, prelazione, usufrutto etc then its fine.  If you speak no Italian, want a pain free and relatively quick experience, get someone to help.

Thanks fo all the comments and advice. I must admit that the 'prelazione' is the one issue I'm not clear about but I'm sure someone will be able to clear it up for me!

I have to say that reading through all the helpful comments that have been made, well done Italy Mag members !

I think (??) the 'prelazione' is a bit like in the UK when you sign contracts but not yet at the point of 'completing'.

Once you sign the prelazione:

you are COMMITTED to buying (whatever the agreed property and contents are) at the agreed price (or you lose as a minimum your deposit).

Once the seller signs the prelazione:

they are COMMITTED to selling (whatever the agreed property and contents are) (or they are required to pay you DOUBLE the deposit that you have paid).

So make sure that all of what you want (and don't want) is covered in specific clauses.

For what it's worth, given all the other advice you have received, we did not use a solicitor, utilising only the Geometra and the Notaio (along with our own common sense).

Good luck,

S

Prelazione is the right of a neighbour to have preference on the purchase of land.  The neighbour must be under 70 years old, a coltivatore diretto or azienda agricola, or renting the land with a regular contract.  If this is the case he has first option on the land for the price you are paying.  It isnt picking a bit he likes though, its all or nothing.  He has the right within 18 months from the date of the act to excercise his right to buy.  Obviously its best to get him to waive his right before you sign the act, otehrwise it can happen that someone comes along after a year and you lose it all.  It obviously means you should not underdeclare the sale price, as the neighbour will only have to pay the price declared at act. 

Sprostoni you've got your words mixed up - you're talking about a preliminare di vendita.  

The caparra (deposit) is either confermatoria or penitenziaria and basically both cover your options.  However a confermatoria means that either party can go to court to force the sale, a penitenziaria its just losing the deposit or double the deposit as you wrote. 

Thank you RAM. That has made the situation very clear for us.

Grazie Ram...............I must admit, when I was writing I thought..............am I right here ? Obviously not !

Sorry ..............I do recall now........

I'll lie down for a bit !

S

Ram, what is the name of your book? 

It sounds like your house must be quite near to ours Ritaruth. We are also in liguria just north of la Spezia, in the Val di Vara. Wherabouts is yours?

Ps We didn't use a solicitor, just a notaio and a geometra who do different checks on the house, and someone to guide us through it.

buying in italy 2011 - its on Amazon, or from buyinginitaly.com as an ebook..... 

Hi Alma,

yes the house is in Val di Vara on the road up to Sesta Godano. Where are you?

We sold a house privately last year. We still paid an agent to do all the paperwork. As it was a private sale we didn't pay them a commission. Both us and the buyer paid them €500 each. All parties were happy and they paperwork got done properly.

It might be another option for you.

We know that road Ritaruth. We are slightly farther south in the lower vara valley, close to Calice al cornoviglio. The whole Vara Valley is a stunning, quite undiscovered (by the English) area. Maybe we can meet one day if we are both in Italy at the same time?

 (

We know that road Ritaruth. We are slightly farther south in the lower vara valley, close to Calice al cornoviglio. The whole Vara Valley is a stunning, quite undiscovered (by the English) area. Maybe we can meet one day if we are both in Italy at the same time?

 (