Help please for restoration

[ExpatAbroad]

Thanks again for the fabulous source of information. I've learned more in 3 hours than I learned over the past 8 months!!

If the cost for renovation is roughly OK and it is roughly 130K....I don't have that kind of money but I would have no problem paying in stages over say 5 years. Is this unrealistic? Is this the way it is done or do I have to go the mortgage route (which I really don't want to do unless I have to)?

The agency was organising quotes from a local bank for the costs and I really didn't know if this is the normal way for funding a restoration like this. Can anyone spread any light on this?

[adriatica]

agree with a lot of the above although i do have reservations about the comments on geometra versus architect and just to confuse you more its not quite that simple and various threads on here will show that there is an argument for and against...well not just one ... lots of them... geometras or architects can be good or bad... the difference regarding geometras and qualifications is that there are geometras that are not qualified enough and there are those that are qualified to do new builds or restorations... i have seen many new houses constructed via geometras... some quite cutting edge and many restorations with total respect for the existing building and the use of sustainable and natural material in the project... so an open argument and i would take no firm statement by anyone on here...including myself as the only way forward....

your problems are several fold... first you bought a building not a house which will require heaps of certificates at the end of your project to allow you to live in it...

your quote if its for finished building with services and certificates of habitability included is almost cheap... but maybe not... prices suggested here are for ruin restoration work...if the walls are sound and the building is on good foundations the quote could be easily under the euro 1000 mark so without knowing your building...location...ie nearest electric pylons and water mains...ease of access and how far out in the countryside or not it is quite hard to say high or low as regards your quote...

the agencies route is one that is risky and not always good... but again things are never that simple... if you do not speak italian and are looking for an english speaking project manager/architect they can be quite as tricky to work with as any agency in respect of pricing to foreigners... i have seen geometrasarchitects here double prices to english clients with no agencies involved and also produce contracts with half the finishing work missing so that what looks like a good price ends up being not so good when walls are left bare and there is no driveway into the property.... a building works contract is even harder to correctly interpret than a house sales contract and is one where i would recommend the detail is checked carefully by someone that understands the terms

your caution over plastering work and the price quoted does not say the state of the walls.... and again plastering is not a simple thing to quote on...

for example a good Walls with good rendering already on it will be cheaper than say a wall where the builder first has to remove the loose materials and make good... and then depending on the structural integrity of your building he might well have to clad it in steel mesh and cover it with a couple of inches of cement to arrive at the point where he can plaster... even with a rough exterior plaster is often the final layer and a lime cement sand mix has been applied first to give a good fixing surface for the end plaster to be applied...

however even that should not be your first consideration...because you say the place needs a new roof and as it isn't a house it will definitely not have a seismic ring... so the roof should be to my mind your first concern... otherwise they could well be breaking your new plaster work maybe to fix in tying rods to pull the building in securely and at the top breaking the wall to tie in the new roof...

you also do not say where you are located in abruzzo.... many areas along the west of the appenines lie along major fault lines and require much higher levels of security in respect of seismic activity... ie the black areas... other have considerable problem with earth movement and the use of geologists is required in all new/full restoration works to test the ground around and below the building and if in the wrong location the use of deep reinforced concrete piles to stabilise the area and the building

so you pose an awfully wide question which i do not believe is answerable by any firm statements within the thread but is useful in opening up a discusion of the options,problems and joys of attempting what you are about to do...

finally to dispel a myth i know of houses ... habitable... for well below your suggested figure... and ok Italian decor and size of bathrooms might not be to everyone's taste...or even heating water with a back boiler fireplace.... but you can buy places that maybe do not look as good as a ruin... because the stonework has been plastered over or painted... but to my mind they offer solutions to the person buying a property here of a place to do things gradually and a much lower cost and often DIY type of work involving simple DIAs and they again to my mind offer to those on limited budgets with limited Italian and limited building experience the best way forward without exception as the least stressful way of buying property here... allowing work to be done gradually while still having a home to live in if your budget is tight... or allowing you to just get it all done as you want in a short time with much lower costs if you have the money available...

hopefully the above will be of some help... i suggest your best thing to do first is to sit back and think a bit more and as you are doing now ask lots of questions before agreeing to do anything

as others have said ... best of luck

in reply to your last bit... no a builder will generalley want paying as certain work is completed... and this is a complicated route...as they would be moving in plant and equipment over your suggested five year plan..... however i would let the agencie you are dealing with get the message that you really are not interested in taking any decisions and tell them to go away until you are ready.... as an agencie here we get banks offreing us percentages on these sorts of deals all the time and its an obvious area of income... i would suggest you take a familiar route and look at ways of approaching others that arrange these things , your own bank being a good start and see waht they figure out for you

[AllanMason]

Originally Posted by ExpatAbroad

I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof.

Adriatica says that you should give the roof priority for very good reasons, but I'll mention another factor which might support this decision.

It's not clear if you've been told that the place needs a new roof to meet the seisminc standards mentioned by Adriatica or if it needs a new roof because the present one is falling to bits or non-existant. If the roof needs work because it's in a bad state of repair and not weather-proof, I think your priority should be to see to this while you're thinking about what you want to do.

Once water penetrates a house, repair bills rapidly escalate, particularly in old Italian country houses where often all that holds the walls together is gravity, a primitive mortar (sometimes nothing more than soil, I understand) and the plaster coating on the outside. That method of construction produces walls that can last centuries, but only so long as there's a roof over them. Once water gets into the wall, the plaster falls off, the mortar washes away and the whole building turns into the sort of picturesque ruin one can see on every hillside in Abruzzo.

A relatively cheap tarpaulin and paying someone to attach it securely to the roof now could save you a whole lot of effort and money in the long-term.

If, however, the place needs a new roof because you now have no roof at all...

Al

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by ExpatAbroad

I have recently bought a very small property in Abruzzo. Basically it is a garage with a hayloft and stables underneath. It isn't connected and needs a new roof....well it was under 20K!

I've tried 'agencies' but the quotes are astronomical (130K for full restoration). In total its about 120m2 but it is a beautiful location. Can anyone give a total nOOb some advice on what to do. Agencies seem to charge a lot for what they do but what do I know??

Perhaps I was ripped off and I should just give up (especailly as there are liveable houses for 70K in the area). Can anyone cheer me up??

I know next to nothing about building costs and restoration so assume you are talking to a complete idiot

Thanks in advance

HI,as has been said the first thing is to find a decent architect or geometra who will have to get permission from the local council to build.Do not think because there was a hay loft/garage that you can simply convert it into a house,this has to be approved up front and not always is easy or to be taken for granted as some councils in rural areas can be very strict on this.There will also be associated "urbanization costs" payable to the local council at some stage.Your arcitect will be able to get varios quotes on an itemized "computo metrico" for the various works to be done (ie. by square metre/by cubic metre/ a corpo/ and or by the day etc) the final restoration costs which will ( as has been said) probably end up somewhere between Euro 1200 -1500 per square metre of house so your quote is probably not far off if it includes roofs/plumbing/electrics/tiling/wall work/insulation/basic equipment boilers etc.

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by Sebastiano

HI,as has been said the first thing is to find a decent architect or geometra who will have to get permission from the local council to build.Do not think because there was a hay loft/garage that you can simply convert it into a house,this has to be approved up front and not always is easy or to be taken for granted as some councils in rural areas can be very strict on this.There will also be associated "urbanization costs" payable to the local council at some stage.Your arcitect will be able to get varios quotes on an itemized "computo metrico" for the various works to be done (ie. by square metre/by cubic metre/ a corpo/ and or by the day etc) the final restoration costs which will ( as has been said) probably end up somewhere between Euro 1200 -1500 per square metre of house so your quote is probably not far off if it includes roofs/plumbing/electrics/tiling/wall work/insulation/basic equipment boilers etc.

forgot to say that at that point you would have a fully (legally) habitable house at that point for around euro 160.000 which wouldn't get you a rabbit house in most of the country or just about a garage in Milano so it's in fact VERY cheap at the end of the day

[ExpatAbroad]

Hmm in response to the status change of the property it was classified as rural but it was reclassified as urban during the sale so I'm hoping that won't be a problem.
The builders quote was including service connections so I guess its an OK quote then.

Its in San Pio between L'Aquilla and Popoli and is in a village on the side of a mountain valley overlooking the main valley between L'Aquilla and Popoli.

I think stage one probably is the roof . There is one but it needs to be replaced with new timber so maybe 20K.....

[NickZ]

Originally Posted by ExpatAbroad

If the cost for renovation is roughly OK and it is roughly 130K....I don't have that kind of money but I would have no problem paying in stages over say 5 years. Is this unrealistic? Is this the way it is done or do I have to go the mortgage route (which I really don't want to do unless I have to)?

It's pretty normal around here to do things in stages. People wait until they've got the money and then do the next stage. You can even save some money by letting the workers do the work when they aren't doing something that is more of a rush.

OTOH you'll need somebody local to supervise things. Some one you trust.

[latoca]

bear in mind that the builders are quoting you for service connection (ai to bring the services throughout the house) but you will still need to pay the acquedotto if you are not connected to it, gas and electricity. Acquedotto charges were for us €700, electricity €80 and gas €1000. These are fees ou pay to the different companies so builders would no include them in their quotations. add them up, though!

Paola

[marbellapete]

I know it's a bit off topic but I got rebuilding costs for UK property only yesterday for insurance purposes.It is similar £900 sq.m for detached bungalow in SW England.

[Gala Placidia]

Originally Posted by ExpatAbroad

....

I think stage one probably is the roof . There is one but it needs to be replaced with new timber so maybe 20K.....

Don't even hesitate... your PRIORITY is the ROOF!