Rose tinted specs...or not?

[patch2277]

Originally Posted by bosco

It's partly what one chooses to see. You can look on the bright side, ignore any unpleasantness around you and continue to have a good time (Gypsy girls' corpses on beach in Italy fail to put off sunbathers | World news | The Guardian). Or in Britain you can ignore all the evidence of a sustained drop in crime rates (though not to reported rates as low as in Italy), and continue to believe that it's rising.

Certainly it's wonderful not to have streets overwhelmed with teenage drunks at weekends. But on the other hand, Italian kids kill themselves (and others) with two-wheeled vehicles at a rate which massively outstrips the toll from more conventional crime in the UK. And there are some commonly reported crimes (e.g. arson of vehicles by vandals, and the sometimes fatal protection racket crime) which are rather less frequent in the UK.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....

Good point Bosco. But I would say that although serious crime is down in the UK don't forget that a lot of the drop in crime figures is statistical manipulation. Certainly with anti social behaviour, which has the most common impact on most people, it is very rarely reported to the police and therefore almost never included in statistics.

The Daily Mail would have us believe that the UK is a sea of violence (and having lived in a few other countries I can categorically say it is not) but the anti social behaviour and attitudes of a lot of people are what really affect most peoples quality of life and can make the UK not a nice place to live in.

[Nielo]

I suspect that, as none of us seem to live or have houses in big towns or cities here in Italy, it is difficult to make comparisons.

Having seen the recent thread about press coverage I also suppose we should not believe anything we read in the papers either!

Maybe it is just the same all over the world but it sure feels better here in Italy.

[sueflauto]

My own opinion is that there is an awful lot of 'rose-tinted specs syndrome' amongst UK ex-pats here. People tend to move to a different environment to what they've been used to and ascribe the differences to a general view that it's better here. I've seen the range of anti-social behaviour: in certain cases it's worse (drunk driving... driving in general!) and in others better (less drunken aggression). The idea that they don't get drunk, talk to god on the big white telephone etc. is just laughable - at least in my neck of the woods.

I've had my purse stolen here, and then a mobile phone. As has been pointed out, the appartments (let alone houses) are massively protected - although I don't bother with the second set of locks on my flat door - others in the block obviously do. My car insurance here is ridiculously high - I ponder why.

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.

Frankly the people who leave the UK because 'it's going to the dogs' are a bit like a close relation of mine who now lives in another country and complains about immigrants to the UK. The irony of the opinion is completely lost on them.

[M&C]

Well - that's certainly not anything I've heard before. I suppose all cultures have their problems in anti-social behaviour. I can only speak from what I not only read in the UK press (and I work in newspapers) and experience here weekly - if not daily and what we experience when we come to Italy (leave tomorrow evening from Stanstead to Pisa - wheee! ) . I know 2 weeks every year isn't a huge amount of experience, and we don't see it 24 x 7 x 365 but there are a number of sites I regularly monitor during the year to keep abreast of what's happening in the news and so on to get a rounded picture of the country, keep current and so on especially as we are seriously looking at moving across when the kids have finished their education. I'd like to know what we're looking at coming to - warts and all. We have no delusions it's a paradise but we've found the people to be warm and hospitable, the climate/lifestyle/diet agrees with us very much. And I don't want to get to the end of my life having never done it and thinking "what if..." even if we try and it doesn't work out. Life is too short and I'd rather try and fail than never have tried at all. I spent 14 months working in France - 6 weeks in Digne in the Haute Alps and a year just outside Paris. Had a very hard time and was homesick for about 9 months of that but was on my own - this time I have a family (our 18th wedding aniversary today!). Even so - wouldn't have missed it for anything. Same with 3 months working in Amsterdam. We haven't decided 100% what we're doing but we've put a plan into action with a timescale and a budget. And doing a LOT of research and information like that which you have posted is useful to us so many thanks for that.

[patch2277]

Originally Posted by sueflauto

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.

Aaaahhhh, so the solution for a happy life is Don't read the papers!

[Charles Phillips]

Originally Posted by sueflauto

My own opinion is that there is an awful lot of 'rose-tinted specs syndrome' amongst UK ex-pats here. People tend to move to a different environment to what they've been used to and ascribe the differences to a general view that it's better here. ......

I also think that the language skills of many aren't (yet) up to scratch, and hence don't particularly notice in the local press the report of a knifing (far more knives carried here, I can assure you even if they are generally used for hacking at salami!) or bottling: in the UK these reports probably jump off the page at you.

I think you have hit two nails on the head here, particularly about non Italian speakers not following either the national or local news.

I know by saying the following I'm going to be labelled as fascist, racist or worse: but most of the murders, drug related crimes, stabbings, rapes and organised robberies which I read about daily in the Umbrian press are carried out by non-Italians - and are almost always drug dealing related. More than half of the reported house robberies or purse snatching incidents are also carried out by non-Italians. A good third of the daily crop of road fatalities also involve extra-communitari (and there cannot possibly be one in three drivers who is non-Italian on the roads).

So, it is quite easy to be racist or fascist when you take notice of the small number of (frequently) illegal extra-communitari who can create fear in a city or a region. All of the 'opolis', on the other hand, are purely domestic arrangements!

[Gala Placidia]

Figures are similar in Spain and also some statistics have been recently released regarding deaths due to domestic violence. Some 60% of these deaths happen within the illegal and "extra-communitari" people and, in most of the cases, drugs or alcohol abuse is involved.
I do not think that anyone can be blamed for being a racist or fascist for pointing out these facts and figures. What also happens is that these figures can be then used by the racist or fascist element in any community (they do exist, everywhere) to justify their unjustifiable actions. And then, us, normal ordinary people, are caught in the middle and without seeing an easy solution for a very serious problem. Oh, the politicians will also use all this to gain some advantages..... The old story....

[Noma]

Originally Posted by Charles Phillips

most of the murders, drug related crimes, stabbings, rapes and organised robberies which I read about daily in the Umbrian press are carried out by non-Italians - and are almost always drug dealing related. More than half of the reported house robberies or purse snatching incidents are also carried out by non-Italians. A good third of the daily crop of road fatalities also involve extra-communitari (and there cannot possibly be one in three drivers who is non-Italian on the roads).

Charles, I note your conclusion is based on what you see in the media, not police statistics.

Stranieri make up 26% of convicted criminals in Italy. Granted, they have a higher crime rate, as they make up only 4% - 5% of the population.

Possibly Umbria is exceptionally rife with criminal stranieri?

[Charles Phillips]

I can believe that only 26% of convicted criminals in Italy are stranieri. One could reasonably argue that there are two reasons why this is an understatement in relation to the criminal activities which I mentioned.

Firstly, it is very difficult to convict an illegal immigrant, and secondly because there are a lot of other sorts of (arguably less socially diruptive) crime at which I'm sure the Italians outshine the stranieri.

And yes, Umbria (in particular Perugia) is in the unenviable position of being Italy's third drug city. Milan is ahead, and number two is either Rome or Naples: (I think it's Rome).

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by Noma

Charles, I note your conclusion is based on what you see in the media, not police statistics.

Stranieri make up 26% of convicted criminals in Italy. Granted, they have a higher crime rate, as they make up only 4% - 5% of the population.

Possibly Umbria is exceptionally rife with criminal stranieri?

i don't no where you get these figures the last ones i saw which were official indicate that over 60% of the italian prison population is foreigners