Rose tinted specs...or not?

[Nielo]

Can anyone answer this for me?

I live out in the sticks in Italy and life is very peaceful, I go to Festas, parties and bars and never see any trouble. No drunkenness, no fights, no window smashing, no vomiting on the pavement, no shooting up in doorways, no drunken women screaming abuse at one another, no teenagers stabbing one another to death.

I hear the news from England, even the small market town where I used to live, and it sounds awful.

Is it because I live in a very rural part of Italy and is it as bad in Italian towns and cities as it seems to be in the UK?

[tuscanhills]

Well, crime is down in the UK.

It also seems that house prices are up, employment is high, inflation is low etc... -> BBC NEWS | Magazine | Five reasons to be cheerful amid the gloom

We just have the same press........

[Gala Placidia]

The situation you experience in your town seems pretty similar to the one we enjoy in our area, although I have reports that in the Versilia Coast and all the beaches it is all very different. The same thing happens in Spain, there are very quiet areas and on the other hand, in some neighbourhoods, particularly in certain larger towns nobody can sleep at night. Alcohol is a very bad companion if people do not learn to drink in a responsible way.

[M&C]

It's one of the reasons I (along with several other million people) are looking to leave the UK. I am - frankly - sometimes ashamed to be English with the way behaviour is going here. And it's one of the things we love about Italy. Last year we were staying overnight on our last night in Pisa before heading back home We went out for a proper pizza, had a lovely evening with a very funny chef and wonderful staff. As we came to the bridge over the Arno, a group of teenagers were doing what teenagers the world over do - standing in a group, chatting noisily, playing on skateboards and one or two were walking along the edge of the wall above the river. An old lady - a very old lady - shouted at them, waved her walking stick at them and they got down. No verbal abuse. No physical threats or otherwise. No back-chat. They looked embarrassed, apologised and carried on chatting. We were stunned - in the UK I don't want to think what the response would have been. We have groups of youths around here on Friday nights, and I wouldn't challenge them without a lot of second, third or even forth thoughts! I don't want my kids being brought up in this kind of society. Thus the dream to move somewhere where the lifestyle is better. I believe that successive governments have legislated the family almost out of existence, made it financially better to live together, and taken all that this country is built on - Christian values and ethics - and now wonders why we're seeing the fruit of that. Kids have no fathers as role models, families are fragmented etc etc. Maybe things financially are harder in Italy and the taxes are higher, maybe the government does suffer from corruption (al least they're honest about it!) and maybe you do have rose tinted glasses - but I want a pair the same ones you're wearing!

Every time we come over it gets harder and harder to come back to the UK. Dreading it this year! Maybe we'll just stay!

[Angie and Robert]

A thought provoking post M&C, and on some points I agree with you. However I think that there is this "myth" of the perfect family that does not exsist, and I think we need to move on from what was upheld as the nuclear family, Mum Dad and kids, there are many loving relationships that do not conform to this ideal and society has changed. Women are now free to leave abusive partners, I know many divorced women in Italy ( and the UK), and we need to remove the stigma that they have somehow "failed" because they no longer conform to the norm as percieved by some elements of society.
I also know adults, men and women who care for their elderly and infirm relatives at home, because there is little state care here in Italy, they have little life of their own, and I wonder how many of them do it because of the force of family and tradition, I admire them but would be unable to do it myself.
A

[Susi]

You raise a very interesting question Nielo, one that I have been thinking about for quite a long time.
I suppose the first thing to remember is looking at like for like, a rural area like the one you live in obviously can't be compared with a town in England.
The only area I know anything about is Northern Tuscany, the Lucca area and what has always intrigued me was the level of security people have on their houses, is that because they are frightened of crime or because there is crime? Bars on the windows incredibly secure doors with bolts in to the floor. Alarm systems seem to increasing. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation is there less crime because of the security? Or are they being paranoid?
The coastal town of Viareggio has crime. Houses are robbed, the market is notorious for pickpockets and there is a drug problem, which probably accounts for a lot of the crime, but then I have been told that there is quite a large drug problem in Lucca!, our next door neighbours son died of a drug overdose in Lucca. But you don' see it; it is below the surface, unlike binge drinking and the mayhem that goes with it, which I have not seen in Italy.
There is vandalism though even in small places like Bagni di Lucca but then there isn't much for the young to do there, I am still trying to find out if there is crime in Bagni, the local jeweler says he has been robbed occasionally, I have heard of some houses being robbed but not many and there doesn't seem to be any street crime, as for young people causing problems we were kept awake recently by what was obviously a party that went on until 5 30 am in the morning I suspect it was an end of school celebration but we had some very unhappy neighbors who had to go to work very early the next day without much sleep!.
I have heard of a village where a couple of the elderly residents had money stolen from their houses but they are used to leaving their doors unlocked, so times have changed. But then you have to consider that Bagni even counting the villages has a population of only about 6000 people, would you find a similar thing in a rural area of England with equivalent populations?
I look forward to seeing what others thoughts are on the subject.
Susi

[patch2277]

Originally Posted by Angie and Robert

A thought provoking post M&C, and on some points I agree with you. However I think that there is this "myth" of the perfect family that does not exsist, and I think we need to move on from what was upheld as the nuclear family, Mum Dad and kids, there are many loving relationships that do not conform to this ideal and society has changed. Women are now free to leave abusive partners, I know many divorced women in Italy ( and the UK), and we need to remove the stigma that they have somehow "failed" because they no longer conform to the norm as percieved by some elements of society.
I also know adults, men and women who care for their elderly and infirm relatives at home, because there is little state care here in Italy, they have little life of their own, and I wonder how many of them do it because of the force of family and tradition, I admire them but would be unable to do it myself.
A

A Also an interesting post. Obviously the perfect family does not exist but does that mean we should not strive toward stability?

We are currently seeing the results of the disintegrating family here in the UK and in many other societies. We are also seeing the results of the other big myth that a child does not need a father.

Obviously relationships change and sometimes it is more destructive being together than being apart but surely the children's benefit should always come first and policy makers should be doing as much as possible to FORCE people to face up to ALL the responsibilities of parenthood.

[M&C]

I didn't mean that as an exclusive reason, but just as one example of the way the fabric of society has changed negatively. I'd also be interested to know what the impact of eastern Europeans has had in Italy - I live in Peterborough and we have the 2nd highest concentration in the UK after London. Most of them are ok, but some are complete rogues.

There was a report in one paper last week where they showed the amount of knife attacks across the UK. Most were in London but many were small rural communities and we've had a few high-profile knife attacks here in the last few years.

Having said that though, England isn't a blood-bath. But teenagers do seem to be lacking any purpose or direction in their lives and it has to come out somewhere.

[bosco]

It's partly what one chooses to see. You can look on the bright side, ignore any unpleasantness around you and continue to have a good time (Gypsy girls' corpses on beach in Italy fail to put off sunbathers | World news | The Guardian). Or in Britain you can ignore all the evidence of a sustained drop in crime rates (though not to reported rates as low as in Italy), and continue to believe that it's rising.

Certainly it's wonderful not to have streets overwhelmed with teenage drunks at weekends. But on the other hand, Italian kids kill themselves (and others) with two-wheeled vehicles at a rate which massively outstrips the toll from more conventional crime in the UK. And there are some commonly reported crimes (e.g. arson of vehicles by vandals, and the sometimes fatal protection racket crime) which are rather less frequent in the UK.

You pays your money and you takes your choice....

[Angie and Robert]

I believe I read in a recent post by adriatica that immigrants ,in this case to Le Marche had help drive forward the already boyant economy, perhaps John you could elaborate for M&C?
A