An awful picture of Italy

[Nielo]

In my experience, whenever there is an ‘incident’ in Italy, the Italians rush to help and there is usually a huge crowd. A child got her foot caught in one of those children’s’ rides in the foyer of the supermarket and half the shoppers were there, all giving advice and getting in the way of the emergency services, so I find it very strange that the picture ostensibly shows no one near the bodies of the two children, I can not believe that they were left alone on the beach.

I'm afraid this smacks of media hype,

I also note from the article that people (Italians) rushed to pull the girls out of the water and that rather goes against the depraved indifference angle, which has been the spin on this story.

[alan h]

I can understand how people on a beach could sit near the bodies if they were not aware of the incident, and thought the bodies were just sunbathers 'covering up' [like I did as akid - before sunscreen was invented]

What I cannot understand/condone in any way is a System that allowed the bodies to stay on a public beach in full view of anybody there - what type of state organisation, [police, ambulance and mortuary] can allow this to happen?

.

[Charles Phillips]

I understand the concern about the bodies having been left on the beach, but I think there is some sort of procedure (whether for legal reasons or for semi-religious reasons) with a fatality which means this has to happen.

I'm basing this on my observation of fatal road accidents and industrial accidents: in Italy and Switzerland the attending ambulance drives off once it has been established that a death has occurred, and the corpse is collected from the scene by a funeral director or an authority in a 'coroner' type vehicle, equipped with proper coffins. I don't know why this happens, but it does, and it obviously means a delay with the body being left in place.

[Sally Donaldson]

The reports though say hours in this case Charles. This beach is on the outskirts of Naples ..... and to be left in the intense sun .....

[Sally Donaldson]

Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe, Archbishop of Naples has spoken on the tragedy - Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe: Prejudice in life, indifference in death - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent

[juliancoll]

Sally, for Gods sake, please stop it! Post after post of links to sensationalist quotes are excuses given by some to use this tragedy to rile up feelings and does nothing to present a clear picture here.

I've stayed out of this thread until now as I was waiting for some news - which I have now received. The question I asked was "Ma manco dei morti hai rispetto?"

The story is true - two young girls did drown on the beach, but the news articles are sensationlist, inaccurate and very damaging. I have read many articles where even a simple thing like the ages of the girls are all completely different and some have reported the girls as being sisters and others, as being cousins.

"A local cleric says the girls were aged 12 and 13. The Telegraph says they were 11 and 12. The Guardian puts their ages at 14 and 16 etc., etc." and in the greater scheme of things being discussed here, I don't suppose their ages are so important except to show that journalists - who were not even present - cannot even report accurately the ages of these two poor girls.

Many of the articles I've read were written by journalists living and/or based in Rome, who sent out reports worldwide from there - none were anywhere near Torregaveta beach at the time.

The girls bodies were recovered from the sea very quickly by people who were on the beach. Many people, including children were very upset and left, but many others, who were also in shock, remained. "Un’anima buona ha messo due teli da mare, due asciugamani, una verde e un’altra bianca e azzurra" to cover their bodies "per la dignita di due ragazzine".

Does that sound as if people didn't care?

The carabinieri e guardia costiera attended soon after the incident and erected a simple barrier while waiting for the senior authorities to arrive (which was over an hour) "perche' ci sono le incombenze burocratiche e di legge da superare". Of course, as there was no other choice, "passare dei minuti i poveri corpi rimangono sulla sabbia" - remember also that the ambulance had to get from the city to the beach and it was already known that the poor girls were dead - this was a mortuary crew and mortuary ambulance - not a medical/emergency one - which is just exactly as Charles stated it would happen.

There was no other choice - what were people supposed to do? Where would you have placed the bodies to if you ever found yourself in this horrific situation?

The bodies of the girls were then respectfully placed inside proper coffins - not plastic body bags - and carried on the shoulders of the police who concluded their preliminary investigations as quickly as possible.

Alan is also right, there were people on the beach who were not aware of what had happened and perhaps thought that people were only sleeping under the towels. There were many others who knew, who had helped in recovering the young bodies and chose to remain near to these two poor girls after death.

Which one of us here would not take some very small comfort in knowing later that our child was not left all alone on a beach after death? The girls parents were not at the beach.

Do you really believe that Neapolitans would react so disgracefully towards ANY child or do you believe - as is being hyped - that they acted in this way simply because these two youngsters were Rom? Do you think they looked up and saw two young girls in trouble in the water and thought to themselves "Oh I cant be bothered with that - they are only Rom kids" - for that is what this reportage hype is turning into, even in Naples!

Look again at that photo - do they really look like they don't give a damn or does their general stance, although blurred, allow you to see that they are aware of the situation and actually don't seem to be having such a great time?

This is a tragedy that is now being used to stir up further feelings about the current anti immigration problems within Italy.

Si vede che la situazione e' nera, but please don't make it worse by pandering to the hype!

[Angie and Robert]

I dont know, but they looked very lonely in death, would it not have been possible for some official, not present in the photo to have erected screens and to have stood "guard" over the bodies?.
This has turned into a debate on what the press perceives as sensational and a demonstration of anti gypsy hysteria.
I do remember other photos of bodies on beaches in Italy where bathers carried on with their sunbathing, and perhaps Alan can provide them for me.
This is not my experience here, but whilst I am protected by my community, perhaps these girls where not?
A

[Noma]

Sally posted a link to this from Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe. I can't imagine anyone reading it and thinking it was a sensationalist quote:

The two young Gypsy cousins, Violetta and Cristina, were offering small, cheap trinkets for sale.

With the sea just a stone's throw away, they did what all children would have done: run into the water to cool off. Instead, they ran to their deaths. The photos in the newspapers were taken when it was too late: you could just make out the feet of the two girls poking out from under a beach towel, with which someone had pitifully covered the lifeless corpses. These sad and horrible photos show us something else, however: sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach, perhaps even irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand.

It is these images which we never wanted to see of our city. We are saddened not only by the two bodies under the beach towels, but by the people who make up the backdrop, people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned.

Turning the other way or minding one's own business can, at times, be more devastating than the event itself.

Indifference is not an emotion for human beings – and it should be even less so when faced with Violetta and Cristina, already scarred by a life of hardship and weakened by the prejudices that must have been difficult to bear at their age.

It is time for Naples to face up to facts. In a community so generous and rich in humanity, we don't want indifference to land us with a new – and more serious – emergency [than the rubbish crisis which submerged Naples]... The city is undoubtedly cleaner and more presentable. But the Church has the duty to look into the soul of its children.

And if it sees indifference growing, everything can become irreparably dirty. Violetta and Cristina are asking us, as they have every right, to look into the soul ... of Naples.

[juliancoll]

Oh come on! Not a sensationalist quote? Are you serious Noma?

Look at the wording!

They ran to their deaths - sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach - perhaps even irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand - people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned - scarred by a life of hardship and weakened by the prejudices. Violetta and Cristina are asking us, as they have every right, to look into the soul ... of Naples."

While some may think the actual quote you highlight may not be sensationalist in itself, the reason for its existance certainly is. Lets look again at the photo in the first post. In focus are the feet of the girls - the couple in the background are out of focus, so here is another photo showing the reverse, the couple are in focus this time.

Torregaveta 1.jpg

What do you notice about these photos (which are the only two I know of)? The couple in the background do seem to be aware of the situation, but are they not just sitting quietly? What else do you notice? How about the hordes of people who didn't act and didn't feel remotely concerned. What about all the people who were irritated by the sight cluttering up the sand? Where are all the sunbathers who continued to lie on the beach?

I cant see them. Can you? No, and nor did any of the reporters, nor the Cardinal, as none of them were there, nor any of the many others who, perhaps unintentionally, twist the facts and keep the rumours running until it builds up into a frenzy.

If we have accepted some people were unaware of what had happened, then they had no reason to behave any differently than they would usually behave on a beach had this tragic accident not happened. That does not mean they were heartless - it means they were unaware of the situation!

We can not condemn people for sunbathing or swimming, for eating a sandwich or drinking, for laughing and joking with friends if they did not know that under the towels just 100 metres away, lay two young girls who had tragically drowned.

I think I'm safe in saying that had they known they would have been shocked and possibly gone over to see if it was true. It's a fact of life that people are nosey and would want to see what had happened.

What I dislike so intensely about this story is the way it has been manipulated into being the reason that these two girls were left on the beach is soley because they were Rom.

It's disgraceful to suggest that these young girls were treated with less respect after death only because they were Rom! The sensationlist comments and reports stem from this rumour being promulgated throughout the press.. who were not even there to report on FACT - and what little fact they could report on, they got wrong!

The Cardinal can only be responding to the reports he has read in the newspapers or heard on the radio - as he was not there either. His comments were then reported and in turn, also responded to and so the whole thing continues, escalating until it becomes something it was not and the real tragedy is brushed aside.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but half of me wantd to leave your post aside Angie, due to feeling I should leave this topic alone now. So I'll just point out that a "simple barrier was erected" and ask you to consider that this was a beach - where there are no facilities to ensure that screens or shrouds are used and guards placed, It is my understanding that the best that could be done for the girls was done at the time.

You said you are protected by your community, but perhaps these girls were not. Does that not make you wonder which community's protection these young girls were supposed to be under? As Rom children, should they only have been under the protection of the Rom community - none of who were there - or - as children of the world, should they not have been under everyones protection?

It was a tragic accident - so I'll say a prayer for both of them and their parents and allow them to rest in peace.

[Charles Phillips]

As ever, a very eloquent and accurate assesment, juliancoll. I agree completely.
But, may I stir the waters a bit, by alerting you all to 'the alternative scenario', which postulates the young Romanian girls didn't drown because they couldn't swim, but that they were deliberately murdered because they were Roms.

I am not making this up. These theories are being published in the mainstream press.