An awful picture of Italy

[Noma]

Oh come on! Not a sensationalist quote? Are you serious Noma?

Completely. I found the Cardinals words very moving. I find your reaction to them peculiarly defensive- as though the people who picnic'ed and sunbathed around the children's corpses are the victims here, not the children.

I agree that we should pray for the children, but I join the Cardinal in praying for Napoli as well- praying that she can overcome the indifference of turning one's back, not only to a dead child, but to all her problems, organized crime, mountains of filth.

[Gala Placidia]

Pax vobiscum! We are all getting a bit upset about this awful event. There is truth in everything that has been said, the sensationalism, the indifference, the inability of handling things with a bit more dignity and respect for human beings. I also refuse to believe that ordinary people could have not been moved by this tragedy. Italians have big hearts and this would have touched everybody. I am also on the side of the Cardinal and I think that prayer will help us a long way and not only in this case. May those girls find in Heaven the love, warmth and care they did not find on Earth.
Pax vobiscum, again!

[juliancoll]

Noma, I didn't say his words were not moving, nor do I believe my reaction to them was peculiarly defensive and I certainly never suggested that people sunbathing on the beach were the victims. (Although that may still happen as the couple pictured on the beach are sure to be recognised.)

In fact, I said that the reaction to this story escalates until it becomes something it was not and the real tragedy is brushed aside.

We are not discussing here the problems with mountains of filth or organised crime in Naples.

We are discussing here (or at least I am) whether the people on the beach were indifferent to the death of these two young girls. We are discussing how, through the media, stories like this can spiral out of control on the assumption that people on the beach didn't care, turned their backs and just left the girls bodies on the sand because they were Rom.

If the reports stated by Charles Phillips in his post above are true - postulating the young girls didn't drown because they couldn't swim, but that they were deliberately murdered because they were Rom, then my point is not only valid, but proven.

Gala, your words will be comforting to many, so thank you, but perhaps we should also not assume that the girls did not have all the love, warmth and care they wanted when they were alive. We don't know who their parents are, how they raised the girls or indeed, if there was any lack of love, warmth or care from their parents, relatives and their (and the larger) community in general.

[Noma]

We are not discussing here the problems with mountains of filth or organised crime in Naples.

I was referring to the Cadinal's statement. I suggest re-reading it, slowly. Very thoughtful article.

[marie armstrong]

I spent the day at the beach in Ostia many years ago and a young man drowned. We (English) were horrified but the Italians with us shrugged and said that this was a fairly common event (I have no idea whether this is true or not). I do seem to remember that the body was removed fairly promptly. As for nationality/ethnicity, unless you are wearing your national flag on your cossie, how could anyone possibly know? Also, perhaps someone who knows more about photography and depth of field than I do could comment on how far away the couple in the background actually were.

[Gala Placidia]

Juliancoll, I am quite certain that the girls may have had families who loved them, but they lived in what we could describe as "hostile environment" where they could have felt rejected. It is all very sad and should not happen.
Marie, unfortunately, Romani people are easy to recognize even in a crowd. Possibly their ethnicity has prompted all this media attention.
All very sad, perhaps we need more prayers, as suggested, not only for the girls and their families but also for ourselves and the world we live in.

[Charles Phillips]

Originally Posted by Gala Placidia

Marie, unfortunately, Romani people are easy to recognize even in a crowd. Possibly their ethnicity has prompted all this media attention.

I very much doubt I would be able to decide whether it was an Italian or a Rom in a swimsuit! I could probably pick out a Dutch family though....but I wouldn't consider this "unfortunate".

[tennaval]

Originally Posted by marie armstrong

Also, perhaps someone who knows more about photography and depth of field than I do could comment on how far away the couple in the background actually were.

A very good question Marie. The answer is: A very long way away. I would say at least 50 metres. They are probably thinking why is that guy aiming an enormous telephoto in our direction? (we do not even know that they are Italian)

He's without question using a long lens, hence the extreme foreshortening and shallow depth of field. In order to get the softening in the backgound, particularly in dazzling daylight, he will also be a lot further from the girls bodies than appears the case.

This distance help on two fronts:

1. It helps him/her switch the focus or degree of sharpness between the girls and the people in the background very easily, thus giving him two separate photos to syndicate. (ie much more money!)

2. It also allows him to draw another figure into the foreground on other photos, who again will be a surprising distance from the bodies, again for more exclusivity and of course ramping up the story of indifference.

The photographer knows exactly what he was doing. Its very manipulative. There are actually no people picnicking around these girls otherwise the shot would be a simple wide shot. Which is why I'm afraid the people in the backgound are the innocent fall guys, it could have been anybody caucasion/"white", any nationality, one of us, it didnt matter as long he had somebody to give it context so that his agency could sell to a news desks.

So they are very much victims, one moment enjoying a quiet day out on the beach and the next their image being wired and syndicated worldwide as representing heartless Italians.

It's surprising how gullible some people are.

One question for Noma:

I'm confused, could you explain to me how Cardinal Sepe knows "PEOPLE DIDNT FEEL REMOTELY CONCERNED" ?

[juliancoll]

Originally Posted by Noma

...
I agree that we should pray for the children, but I join the Cardinal in praying for Napoli as well- praying that she can overcome the indifference of turning one's back, not only to a dead child, but to all her problems, organized crime, mountains of filth.

Originally Posted by Noma

I was referring to the Cadinal's statement. I suggest re-reading it, slowly. Very thoughtful article.

You misunderstand Noma, I was referring to the parts of your statement (quoted and bolded above) where you bring the problems of organised crime and mountains of filth into the discussion.

[Nielo]

Originally Posted by Noma

the people who picnic'ed and sunbathed around the children's corpses are the victims here, not the children.

I.

The only evidence we have to go on is the picture and I cannot see people picnicking or sunbathing around the children’s bodies.

I see two people sitting over by the rocks, they don't look very Italian to me, nor do they look as if they are enjoying themselves sunbathing. Their body language strikes me as sad and uncomfortable, they sit there clutching their knees, not basking in the sun. Also the photograph shows just an instant in time. Who knows they may have sat there for only a few seconds before leaving.

Also it may be true that Roma are easily recognised but I defy anyone to recognise the nationality of someone when only their feet are visible.

I hope the children are in heaven (if there is one) I am sure their parents are in hell. They have lost their children and to have their tragic deaths used to stir up such a furore and to make it a racist issue will not help them in their grief.