salaries pensions and such

[Nielo]

Originally Posted by adriatica

pigro

if it was even half true...this home centric version of italian life i might almost agree...

i can say that you hear of lots of violence within families here...... many deaths... and it seems often tensions are increased because the parents and the children are not that happy with situations where they are still in such close contact

without prospects of either children or parents being able to afford to purchase or even rent a place for the next generation...

your happy ideal of the italian family was before the euro took over.. and children made a choice to say with parents to save up something ... and parents were happy because it meant their child was thinking ahead and planning ...there was an end in prospect... its all very different now....

not helped by the fact that the finance minister just said how wonderful his new finace act was going to be because it has given the young about 1 cent a day to help them with buying or renting a new home...

yes it would be nice to still believe in the southern european family value thing...and of course it will still exist ... but you can note the change in everyday life ...when you see the number of elderly being left alone by their children and grand children in the care of the new surrogate family member "the employee from eastern europe"... nothing wrong with them.. but the family no longer has the time or interest to care in the round as it used to...

or the grandparents complaining because the children are left with them all the time because both parents have to be out working very long hours... and they just do not have the energy to be almost full time parents again

so i agree whilst young people and parents were staying together through choice and could make plans for the future fine... now its different and for the first time since the war older italians believe the following generations will be worse off than them...

I disagree with your argument and invite you to back it up with some evidence.

[adriatica]

pigro

you will be pleased to hear that this is still very much an urban problem in the major cities here ...as intense as those problems you mention... there is a big difference in my mind too...its the willingness of Italians to protest whats wrong... small areas of large cities get up and protest...if it does any good i do not know...but the Italians are more inclined towards almost spontaneous rebellion... in my opinion

there is very much less of the willingness also to avoid calling kettles black here...even on national news ... if its eastern europeans or whatever causing the problems there is no ethnically correct way of calling it... its very straight out...

most of italies problems of social decline is the fact of uninhibited imigration...in their minds...because the ex law major breaking fraternities of italy...of which there are many had standards...according to Italians... the new ones no...

Abruzzo and Umbria, Marche and many other regions or provinces with regions survive...not quite as many years ago but satisfyingly remote from many of the major problems...

here in Abruzzo what is well known is the fact that Pescara ... a very much growing city has declined more than any other in the region... and people do not like to live too close to some of the coastal towns... for the same reasons of much higher drug related crime

my response was a general one to wht is ofetn missed because most of us do not live in cities... but the news here can be bleak...what will make you laugh smetimes is how straight out the Italians are in their response... althoigh not politically correct

[Gabbi]

It's sad but true. Italy is messed up and people are confused and worried. The euro had a lot to do with kicking it all off as everything almost doubled in price overnight, except income.

[adriatica]

as regards eveidence... i am not in a court case or supplying wiki information... its a forum ... if you want to discuss things thats what you do...give your thoughts and opinions...

other threads say on tax...eg... if you are resident and in italy and you have an income you should fill in a tax return... types of statements ... would benefit maybe from a link to the law stating this..

however ... as a debate in the italian politics section i really think that anyone reading my sweeping statements can just about work out that it does not apply to every situation here and that the whole of italy is not falling apart...either in the family sense or any other way

[Nielo]

Originally Posted by adriatica

however ... as a debate in the italian politics section i really think that anyone reading my sweeping statements can just about work out that it does not apply to every situation here and that the whole of italy is not falling apart...either in the family sense or any other way

Thank you Adriatica, I can agree with your last paragraph.

I am sure that, were I to state an opinion here that Italy is very low on the list of countries, which suffer from excessive violence within the family and the cohesive nature of Italian family life is largely responsible for this, it would be a direct opposition to your "sweeping statements".

I have only lived here for two years and, as I have said before, am in the very lucky position of not having to earn a living here, so perhaps that is why my experience differs so much from yours.

You are entitled to voice your opinions here and to make sweeping generalisations but I believe that I am equally entitled to challenge your opinions and ask you to back them up. That is what debate is all about isn’t it?

It may not be a court of law but nevertheless if you are going to publish such statements you should be prepared to be challenged and to back them up if possible or back down if not.

[adriatica]

nielo

am not sure what position you are in and do not exactely see how it relates to what you are trying to say...i guess if i look back maybe i am the one that has upset you by posting "inacurate information"... i really do not know...

am not sure if you are lucky or not either...or indeed if i am...or even as you seem to suggest i have to work to live here...

as a stated newcomer to Italian life... and maybe not having the opportunity to be as involved in things Italian maybe you do look at things through rose tinted glasses... i would hesitate to suggest such a thing but thats the conclusion i draw from your statement of not having to do anything here or maybe even choosing too...

i really see no reason why my statements which are never directed at you seem to upset you so much...the simple recourse if you wish to debate is just to turn around and give your view in a posting ... then people make up their own minds... or maybe just ignore the whole thing...ie just not plain interested in what i have to say...have you ever thought of taking that course of action with me...

it really is that simple...

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by NickZ

I think most would agree rents in Rome [fill in your favorite big city] are high enough to be at best painful for many with low incomes. What I'd like to know is why so many small towns around the country are turning into ghost towns?

I bet if you compared the last three censuses you'll have a long list of small towns that have lost at least 10% of their populations each census.

Okay employment in those small towns is harder to find but they mostly aren't that far from the bigger cities.

firstly,i'll say that i agree with most of the stuff that Adriatica has said here.
Bearing in mind that when one starts talking about sociology-trends and so on a lot of things can appear to be just opinions or sensations.statistics as we are all aware can easily be manipulated to show diametrically opposing theories etc.I live in an area which has lost 10% of the population in 10 years and the decline is i would say inexorable,we continue to lose 1% per annum.
the first cause is death ( colocated within an ageing population)the second is the zero /minus birth rate as people are not having children and schools are being closed or aggregated into larger institutions.Given the retreat from agriculture which today, at anything less than large scale, is generally in deficit
and the limited employment prospects, younger people are tending to move to the larger nearer towns,those who go farther for university education often tend to remain away.Given that an average university graduate after 1 year of work averages only 1.500 per month it is unsuprising that they do not want to undertake a commuting scenario maybe spending 2 hours a day to get to work in some city just to be able to continue living in their "paesello".
At the moment it is a very bleak scene in this country and as my neighbour says (in dialect)the worse is still to come...

[NickZ]

Originally Posted by Sebastiano

Given that an average university graduate after 1 year of work averages only 1.500 per month it is unsuprising that they do not want to undertake a commuting scenario maybe spending 2 hours a day to get to work in some city just to be able to continue living in their "paesello".

It's not about wanting to. If you can't afford to live in the big city why not commute from a place you can afford? Two hour commutes aren't fun I know but it's a lot better then not being able to afford a place to live.