salaries pensions and such

[adriatica]

bit of a debate going on again, the lower house here has just blockd its own pay rise for this year... actually if they had taken it there might have been fighting in the streets from us rowdey peasants...

grillo is after prodi and mastella ...making them feel very uncomfortable and quotes of their salries do not make pleasant reading for most italians

an mp here gets 13,500 euro per month in salary... there is of course hundreds of perks to add into that including free flights with al italai... one reason they wont let it fail... free cars... etc etc... average salary for a worker here is worked out to be just about e16,000 per year...

in the 50s say... mps salaries were aprox 6 times the avaerage salary... now its ten times

if you like numbers there pensions also make for interesting reading

after 2.5 years...i think its going to be raised to 5 mps are entitled to the minimum pension here for them which is e2,800 per month

salried worker with 30 years of contibution will arrive finally at their right to a minimum pension e830 per month

this is all becoming relevant to Italians as they see their standard of living visibley dissapearing and the government who got elected on looking after the workers sort of fiddling while the whole country seems to have come to a stanstill in terms of any planning to try and resolve the basic issues and problems...

we have the new as yet un elected leader of the combined left of centre party brought in to unite their ideas proposing that taxs are lowered so that people actually will pay them ...the burden now is at 42.3 per cent while prodi and his finance ministers are saying tax will not drop...

we have a 70 billion debt to feed and they are proposing an extra 20 billion of spending so who is going to pay that...

a poverty trap here which if say you compare with france or UK looks like this

for every 26 in england funds support 8 people

france 26 out of which social support will help 6 and

italy 22 out of which social support will help 3

i know ...just figures but they do paint pictures... and quotes or headlines in the newspaper now state ..italian politics the most expensive in the world... italian wages the lowest in europe...

grillo used to get booed a lot for his often extreme ideas... today hes almost a national hero outside of the political ring as he expreses views and solution concerning prodi that around 75 per cent of italians agree with... worst of all prodis in action is making the whole political class here vulnerable as more and mor resentment builds up against politicians in general

[Ivan]

There's a piece in today's Daily Telegraph [19/09/2007] under the headline "Italy unleashes the V word to read riot act to politicians" with a picture of Beppe Grillo. I thought UK politicians were venal [eg. grace and favour houses long after they have left office, first class railtickets for mistresses] but Italian politicians seem to be something else!!

Apparently, a group of Italian expats formed a V in Piccadilly Circus. It would seem that "running Italy's 2 houses of Parliament and the endless ministries costs £2.8 billion a year - more than the cost of politics in England, France and Spain combined". Wow!! That must take some doing! One senator asked for free ice-cream this summer, apparently, since it was so hot that he was having difficulty thinking. Perhaps, it would be better if he didn't!!

I wonder which country in the developed world has the least expensive politicians. I think I shall go there. The Italian salary costs and freebies amongst the political class just seem unbelievable. However did it come to this? I shall certainly add the word "vaffanculo" to my limited Italian vocabulary. Others can translate! Mr.Grillo is now one of my heroes.

[ronald]

Italian politicians are almost scared - they feel they may have just been called out and the party might finish so they are trying to discredit Grolli by saying anything possible including the very pathetic "well - he sells DVDs off his website so who is he to talk!"....

At the same time, Mastella - justice minister - was caught using a goverment jet from Ciampino to fly to ou to see the Grand Prix. Blair had to at least pretend he was using Easy Jet :-)

What is really interesting is not how outrageous politicians are (they've always been that bad) but how people have had enough. Let's just hope Grillo's protest evolves into real change

[sueflauto]

Another blog on the same subject, with some interesting comments added:

Guardian Unlimited: Arts blog - theatre: The rallying cry of comedy

[nigelaxis]

I opened the paper today and showed that (of those who could get a mortgage) the number that need a mortgage of over 30 years has doubled.

During the weekend I spoke with a professional living in Rome (they are 32, highly qualified with 6 years relelent experience). He had just been offered a job for e800 a month and told it was a good deal as they would give him a contract. How do you live on e800 in Rome? You have to stay with your parents for ever!

I then speak with another friend who tells me her mortgage is actually more then her salary!!! She gets given the rest from her parents so she can survive. To put this into context, the apartment was is tiny and in the middle of nowhere. She also has a good job.

What then doubles this is the pensions versus salaries. Most of the current generation seems to earn less then what their parents take in pension. This is then doubled as many of these do not even have a pension.

tick, tick, tick..........is this the sound or a time bomb? Yes. Is it political / economic / pensions or all three that we are hearing?

[lilly]

In the republica magazine insert there is a interesting article on salaries etc. The perception of Italians as home loving and forever tied to the apron strings is somewhat off the mark as most stay through economic necessity.Most of the women I know live in their "husbands house" ie , no mortage and handed down from their husbands family.

[pigro]

Fascinating & thought provoking stuff from Adriatica as always.

this will be controversial but isn't there an argument in favour of living mortgage free in a family property? I understand how lack of mobility limits career prospects. I can also see that having to live with a big family once you're adult and otherwise "independant" can be stifling.

But it's this "home centric" facet of italian society that results in the strong continuing family influence that so many people (Italians & others) value. I'm not saying that limited employment & housing prospects are a good thing, but compare & contrast: is earning enough money to pay a x6 salary mortgage on your yuppy batchelor pad in a British City (and burning out in your career by 35) actually that much better in the long term? Particularly if you're left in negative equity once the unsustainable price rises end?

I don't know the answer, and I kind of expect to be shot down for expressing something so clearly unfair to the individuals faced with this reality, but there are always two sides and I wonder if anyone else sees the basic conundrum between opportunity now & social stability longer term?

[adriatica]

pigro

if it was even half true...this home centric version of italian life i might almost agree...

i can say that you hear of lots of violence within families here...... many deaths... and it seems often tensions are increased because the parents and the children are not that happy with situations where they are still in such close contact

without prospects of either children or parents being able to afford to purchase or even rent a place for the next generation...

your happy ideal of the italian family was before the euro took over.. and children made a choice to say with parents to save up something ... and parents were happy because it meant their child was thinking ahead and planning ...there was an end in prospect... its all very different now....

not helped by the fact that the finance minister just said how wonderful his new finace act was going to be because it has given the young about 1 cent a day to help them with buying or renting a new home...

yes it would be nice to still believe in the southern european family value thing...and of course it will still exist ... but you can note the change in everyday life ...when you see the number of elderly being left alone by their children and grand children in the care of the new surrogate family member "the employee from eastern europe"... nothing wrong with them.. but the family no longer has the time or interest to care in the round as it used to...

or the grandparents complaining because the children are left with them all the time because both parents have to be out working very long hours... and they just do not have the energy to be almost full time parents again

so i agree whilst young people and parents were staying together through choice and could make plans for the future fine... now its different and for the first time since the war older italians believe the following generations will be worse off than them...

[pigro]

Thanks Adriatica, I more or less knew that I was looking through rose tinted glasses, but in Glasgow I've had my flat burgled twice and had my car mindlessly vandalised 4 times, all within the past 18 months.

If the future for Italy is as bleak as you see it (and I realise you are there & keep your eys & ears open) then prepare for much worse levels of crime & social breakdown than you already see. every day now in the UK another senseless death is reported: the 12 year olds are either busy shooting each otehr, or stoning innocent middle aged men to death.

Pessimistic I know, but balanced (currently) by what I still see in rural umbria. Think I'll keep my tinted spec's on for a wee while longer, as Ican't think of a good alternative plan ....

[NickZ]

I think most would agree rents in Rome [fill in your favorite big city] are high enough to be at best painful for many with low incomes. What I'd like to know is why so many small towns around the country are turning into ghost towns?

I bet if you compared the last three censuses you'll have a long list of small towns that have lost at least 10% of their populations each census.

Okay employment in those small towns is harder to find but they mostly aren't that far from the bigger cities.