is this the start of marshall law

[juliancoll]

How very Italian of them!

But seriously, are you saying the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance? I don't think so - there is a real (if imagined) fear amongst many people. There are also hierarchy levels within the different immigrant races in Italy - some are more feared/despised than others - very few are welcomed - and non are trusted - with perhaps the exception of one.

[Nardini]

I think that Noma's point was more one of the whipping up of fear levels for political reasons (as with the use of Alitalia to get the nationalistic feelings racing) and "win" the last election. You are, of course, right about saying that many Italians have a fear of immigrants. This is based on rather firmly (and realistically) held fears of physical attack. The north has suffered from the fear of "home invasion" attacks, based on the actual frequency of such attacks - there have been several close to us over the past couple of years. The fear is not only based in fantasy - it has roots in reality as well. It was a very simple move to fan those fears into a far greater intensity than even Bossi had managed to, despite his massive duro, over the years. After all, dott. Berlusconi has the Italian media in his pocket - alongside his proverbial sunshine!

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by Noble

I should like to remember the full details but can't so please accept the true story went something like this. A terrorist plot was discovered in Perugia in 2007 due to the tireless efforts of the Polizia Postale (they seem to have a wide brief). The hours and hours of overtime put in by a few men, could not be paid as there was insufficient funds, never the less they continued their persuit of the terrorists involved, apparently it was a thankless task but arrests were made.

i'm very suprised at the " hardly hidden" groniad/left wing lines of thought that this thread has "uncovered"..(if you like G.Brown so much go and live at number 10) this country may just be starting to address some of it's "atavic" problems after 60 years (+) ie. since the war. These concern organized crime,uncontrolled immigration,trade unions,state driven or owned and controlled enterprises ,public financing of dozens of futile journals and newspapers and many other themes.For the first time (since the war) it has been possible to elect ( without doubt and an absolute majority) a right wing government that is doing this.Indipendently of the person of the current prime minister who one may easily dislike,there is no doubt that the government is bringing winds of change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,which is not the same as saying it's all wonderful but it is change.In this context ( and whether Guardian readers like it or not) the presence of troops is overtly a physological message to the nation and is PERCEIVED as such.nobody is under any illusion that suddenly crime stops, it's a CONCEPT of going towards a " zero tollerance" scenario at least for micro criminality in the centres of some of the larger cities which made life for residents and tourists a like rather unpleasant.Recently they interviewed people on the street in the centre of Milano (including old age pensioners) who said for the first time in years they felt easy about going out shopping in the market and streets etc everyone one else seemed very happy with the new "scene"...it's very easy for some /many of our left wing forum members to start on using "big words" like demrocacy to start decrying these new moves on the part of the govenment..(yes, i have finished the rant!)

[Nardini]

Sebastiano, I think that I follow your thinking a little and I tend to agree with some of what you have said. Certainly, the additional number of "uniforms" on the city streets will have made a difference to the levels of petty crime taking place. Pickpockets will be very wary of conducting their "business" with uniformed officers close by. Perhaps, the confusion for some is the tendency of Brits to see that the army force on the streets is not any more intimidating that any of the other police forces - guns are carried by all, after all. Similarly, it seems to be missed that the army are not able to actually arrest anyone - only support the arresting authorities. This is not easy for someone living their lives in the UK to fully understand, given the nature of the unarmed police that patrol the streets of the UK (usually).

Of course, by attacking the Gruniad readership that may, or may not, be reading this, you do yourself no favours, given that the readers of the Torygraph will be fed the same sort of nonsense about the role of the army on the streets of Italian cities. The point is, I feel, that the troops evident on the streets of the cities are acting as an additional deterrent - not something that can be quantified or turned into a report without the addition of plenty of "spin" - something that dott Berlusconi would have no problem with should the need arise, of course.

So, where are we? We have a few troops on the city streets that have helped reduce some of the petty crime. We have a city population that feel a little better protected by the additional "uniforms" on the streets. We have not really lost anything, save for the respect and understanding of the foreign press (who, admittedly, always like to illustrate how the other "foreigners" are doing everything wrong) and a placated Lega as well as a calmed AN. In other words, a "result"! Of course, one has to accept that for this result to work, it is necessary for an utter disregard for how the rest of the world actually view what is happening.

I said all that without mentioning Mussolini once, eh! Trains on time...mafia wiped out in Sicilia... etc. I await the time when dott Berlusconi conducts his political rallies on the run.

[Angie and Robert]

[quote=Sebastiano;97970] change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,QUOTE]

When were these ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ then ? To my recollection the stagnation was caused by the fact that the main element in all the governments since 1945 up to the 80’s was the Christian Democrats ( e.g conservatives ).
When did the issue of what papers people read come into the discussion ? I don’t think anyone on this thread has said they are a Guardian reader have they ? ( excuse me I think your prejudices are showing ).
However it was interesting to hear that people in Milan feel safer . This not to be sniffed at but still begs the question as to whether the army have prevented crime or arrested any criminals. Just interested.
The sniping comment about people returning to live in the UK if they don’t like Italy’s current politics is a bit crass. If we are not allowed to give opinions about these things then what is the point of this forum. If you were here during the ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ Sebastiano, I don’t doubt you would have let your opinions be known , but did anyone suggest you go backto where you came from if you didn’t like it ?
Counter-rant over.
Robert ( not Angie )

[Noma]

But seriously, are you saying the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance?

No, read what was written:
"Having gained office by whipping up the public's fear of immigrants and Roms, they now present themselves as our saviour, though in reality they've done nothing."
They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain.

[juliancoll]

I did read what was written by you Noma - and as much as you would like to have a little dig by attempting to make me look as if I had not read your post correctly - you will have to get up even earlier than you did to catch me out - because you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you?

Now, rather than attempting to persuade opinion that I am illiterate - please get off my case until you have something worthwhile to discuss with me.

[Noma]

you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you

No, because that added explanation was only necessary for you. Nardini was somehow able to understand the original post:

I think that Noma's point was more one of the whipping up of fear levels for political reasons (as with the use of Alitalia to get the nationalistic feelings racing) and "win" the last election. You are, of course, right about saying that many Italians have a fear of immigrants. This is based on rather firmly (and realistically) held fears of physical attack. The north has suffered from the fear of "home invasion" attacks, based on the actual frequency of such attacks - there have been several close to us over the past couple of years. The fear is not only based in fantasy - it has roots in reality as well. It was a very simple move to fan those fears into a far greater intensity than even Bossi had managed to, despite his massive duro, over the years. After all, dott. Berlusconi has the Italian media in his pocket - alongside his proverbial sunshine!

[bosco]

[quote=Sebastiano;97970 For the first time (since the war) it has been possible to elect ( without doubt and an absolute majority) a right wing government that is doing this.... bringing winds of change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,[/QUOTE]

Sebastiano and I evidently live in parallel universes. In my universe, since Italy's first elections after the war (in 1948) there have been approximately seven years (out of sixty) of left wing (-ish?) governments. And in my universe, seven years does not add up to one decade, let alone decades. (I do not count in these figures the historically rather short period in which Craxi and the Italian Socialist Party were minority partners in coalitions numerically dominated by the indubitably conservative and right wing Christian democrats.)

Also in my universe, the longest-lived Italian government since 1948 was the 2001 to 2006 right wing government of Silvio Berlusconi. The winds of change blowing in this period do not appear to have been dramatic, although a few changes had interesting effects - such as those to the electoral laws which made it difficult for the short-lived Prodi government to win and maintain an effective working majority afterwards.

So who precisely is responsible for all this "stagnation and indulgence"?

Bringing the army onto the streets and allowing mayors to introduce local laws against prostitution and micro-crime make for an excellent press (especially if you own most of it), for good television (especially if you control seven eighths of it), and thence for improvements in public perceptions of safety (if not in reality?). But I still look forward to seeing the enactment of measures which might offer the possibility of a genuine transformation in Italy's efficiency and competitiveness.

[juliancoll]

Originally Posted by Noma

No, because that added explanation was only necessary for you. Nardini was somehow able to understand the original post:

What a pity Nardini doesn't do all the talking on your behalf Noma - it would give you a chance to get some treatment.