is this the start of marshall law

[adriatica]

the statistics would appear to bear you out bosco...however the facts of life here are really somewhat more complicated ... because the national governments did or were unable to do anything much due to massive communist control of all public administration and the judiciary,infrastructure and the work place... and so on and so forth... so whoever ruled had no power to make change as there was always a strike if it did not suit....

virtually all governments that were formed were based on very badly thought out coalitions... in a sense set up to enable a government to be formed and so disparate in its views that nothing ever got done.... apart from the fact that they generally agreed to stay together until their pension rights were set in stone and then collapsed...

add to that the fact that Italy has had virtually continuous civil war either with organised crime and or anarchist movements with death tolls and fear levels outweighing that say of NI of the past ... and the effects easily seen on the economy there of that problem ... you can also have some sympathy for past ineffectualness

since the last two big names in Italian politics took over despite not really liking either of them much... Italy has crawled slowly to a somewhat more democratic reality... with national governments beginning to take control... you could feel somewhat sorry for the last Prodi government in the sense that it did take a stance to stop protected jobs... did argue with the unions... did face up to the magistrates and if they had not had a communist coalition party to rely on they most probably would have made good progress.... ok i know they did not bring him down...it was more a cause of a criminal being found out... however they were getting to the point that there members were telling them off for continuimng to support the Prodi government programme....

so much as i have a habit of ranting on i think sebastainos rant is justified in the sense that it points to a closer view of the reality of life in Italy rather than the cold historical records

i say bring on the rants as they generally get points out and increase debate ... far better than links to facts and or foreign news reports... as in your weighted answer ...

finally troops on the street have worked for the Italians who are feeling safer in areas that before they did not... its much the same as anywhere where putting uniforms in high profile allows you to think you are safer... many of you being frequent flyer's should understand this as the last time i went through an airport it was bristling with automatic weapons... to what purpose... they are there to make you feel safe

a waffling and rambling post ... sorry ... hope it makes some sense

as regards the prostitution measures ... i think its also fair to say that many Italians have seen their neighborhoods turned into open air sex shops... they have been arresting them and moving them on for many years without much effect... i think the new law that also takes into account the client participation will have a marked effect on street level/kerb crawling type behaviour as car numbers are taken and fines are being sent to homes...

[Noble]

Re the new prostitution law....it has done what the local Carabinieri could not, cleared prostitutes displaying their services along various main roads around Perugia. Those poor, scantily dressed girls won't be out there freezing this winter. The Italians we know accept prostitution as an age old business but applaud the new law to fine the Customers.

[J.d'A.]

Originally Posted by marco

is berlusconi the new mussollini

Yes he is...do you still have any doubts about it?
Just have a look to tv programs and you won't have any..

[J.d'A.]

I think policy is not the way to remove the Mafia but just to apparently combat it. The thing is, "has anybody wondered why the Italian government sent soldiers in roads instead of facing the problem with real interest?" Do you think Mafia's men are so stupid to make their crimes publicly, along the roads?

[Noma]

The fact remains, Nardini and others were able to understand the post- you are the sole complainant. Instead of simply recognizing that you misunderstood, you posted the following:

I did read what was written by you Noma - and as much as you would like to have a little dig by attempting to make me look as if I had not read your post correctly - you will have to get up even earlier than you did to catch me out - because you didn't write "They've fanned the flames of existing fears for political gain." within your first post - did you?

Now, rather than attempting to persuade opinion that I am illiterate - please get off my case until you have something worthwhile to discuss with me.

Followed by the equally obnoxious:

What a pity Nardini doesn't do all the talking on your behalf Noma - it would give you a chance to get some treatment.

Where are the moderators on this forum?

[juliancoll]

Originally Posted by Noma

Where are the moderators on this forum?

They get up even earlier than you Noma!

I did not misunderstand you post - or your intentions - so please, lets agree not to discuss it further and hopefully we can get along just fine by acknowledging that neither one of us agrees with the other.

[Sebastiano]

[quote=Angie and Robert;97984]

Originally Posted by Sebastiano

change after decades of left wing stagnation and indilgence,QUOTE]

When were these ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ then ? To my recollection the stagnation was caused by the fact that the main element in all the governments since 1945 up to the 80’s was the Christian Democrats ( e.g conservatives ).
When did the issue of what papers people read come into the discussion ? I don’t think anyone on this thread has said they are a Guardian reader have they ? ( excuse me I think your prejudices are showing ).
However it was interesting to hear that people in Milan feel safer . This not to be sniffed at but still begs the question as to whether the army have prevented crime or arrested any criminals. Just interested.
The sniping comment about people returning to live in the UK if they don’t like Italy’s current politics is a bit crass. If we are not allowed to give opinions about these things then what is the point of this forum. If you were here during the ‘decades of left-wing stagnation’ Sebastiano, I don’t doubt you would have let your opinions be known , but did anyone suggest you go backto where you came from if you didn’t like it ?
Counter-rant over.
Robert ( not Angie )

The Italian Christian democratic party was always historically a coaltion within itself having a rainbow of "correnti" (ie. of differing lines of political thought which ranged from overtly left wing to quite definitely right wing)as early as the late sixties and always for the fear of the increasing vote for the Italian comunist party the D.C played to this presumed risk, appeasing what was seen as an increasing threat to deomocracy in Italy.Already by the seventies trade unions,much local government,
and many other entities were firmly in the hands of the left wing controlling to all extent and purposes not only much of public life but certainly what were then considered the "working classes".Political activity became a constant war of arttrition and appeasement hence the continual collapse of the governments which succeeded one after another,cruddy put together coalitions whose only real scope was to act as a bulwark against the comunist threat.Ending with the attempts by the"left wing" christian democrat Moro who wanted to take the appeasement policy line to the enth power proposing even a political alliance/coaltion with the P.C.I.which promptly sparked off the political "killing season" of the so called "anni di piombo".it's worth adding that in all those years the right wing had never succeeded in ousting it's own political skeletons ie. it's traceable history back to Fascism, and as a consequence never acheived the political "acceptabilty" necessary to be elected to run the country.So ,in a way you were right, yes there was the DC but it was a far more intricated political scenario than that seemed on face value.Now more or less forty years on with the right wing out of it's political ghetto,the war now a remote memory for the few,it may be possible for the country to start to revise a myriad of themes/insitutions ,affront previously untouchable social corporativism with reforms.This process will inevitably upset not a few people as strongholds of unjustified and unjustifiable priviledges will be touched.Personally i don't consider the current prime minister as having the political stature, the ethical qualities nor the acumen to acheive this,nevertheless the result of the last elections proved to be a landslide in favour of change away from the matrix which has characterised Italian politics for the last forty years (decades indeed) freeing the country of a mass of minor political factions whose main interest was only their own perpetuation. only time will tell if these aims can be acheived even if only to a minor extent by the present government.Stuff like soldiers in the streets is all minor details in comparison.

[Noma]

Originally Posted by juliancoll

I did not misunderstand you post.

Actually, you did. No one else had a problem understanding my post's meaning "whipping up fear levels for political reasons". Only you misunderstood (and continue to delude yourself) my post to say: "the Italian public had no fear of immigrants and Roms before the Government took this stance".

[oil di lino]

hi all i dont understand all the polictcal implecations of this thread our off the goverment , but i have just returned from a weekend in napoli .What a improvement i saw no gangs of gypsey pick pockets IE preganant woman , granny , and small boy to do a runner whith your wallet , isaw onley three well dressed begers outside the churchs and one small boy asking poletely for money .THIS surly must be an improvement if only in the short term it made our trip to naples more fun , and to se solders on every corner we felt much safer