is this the start of marshall law

[marco]

is berlusconi the new mussollini
ANSA.it - News in English - Soldiers to patrol Italian cities
or has society in italian cities broken down so much that they need to use the military for everyday policing??

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by marco

is berlusconi the new mussollini
ANSA.it - News in English - Soldiers to patrol Italian cities
or has society in italian cities broken down so much that they need to use the military for everyday policing??

Apparently according to a survey just done by SKY NEWS, 82% of Italians think it is a good idea to get the troops out into the streets for extra policing duties.

[barn_elms]

Since all the police, including the military Carabinieri are armed, the addition of one more (temporary, presumably) armed element to policing duties hardly seems like the introduction of martial law, or is 'marshall' law something different?

[AllanMason]

I'd always assumed that the police in Italy - including the paramilitary Caribinieri - received training focusing on civil law enforcement while the training and ethos of the Italian military was more along the lines of attack, defence and, to put it crudely, killing people as efficiently as possible. I suppose if politicians simply want more uniformed bodies on the street and the Italian military aren't deployed anywhere outside Italy, then they should be capable of dealing with two fronts(Neopolitan rubbish collection and policing) without too much "over-stretch", but I do wonder of how much practical use they're going to be.

Al

[barn_elms]

All uniformed personnel, whether police or military, who carry weapons will have received training on the use of that weapon, including its killing capability. The military will also have received training in the Geneva Convention, including the treatment of civilians, which the police may well not have. In some way demonising the military as if they are being introduced to threaten the populace rather than to augment a police effort stretched in its attempts to control criminality, is an attitude that is more likely to cause problems. Fortunately, as another contributor has pointed out, it is not widespread.

[AllanMason]

Originally Posted by barn_elms

All uniformed personnel, whether police or military, who carry weapons will have received training on the use of that weapon, including its killing capability. The military will also have received training in the Geneva Convention, including the treatment of civilians, which the police may well not have. In some way demonising the military as if they are being introduced to threaten the populace rather than to augment a police effort stretched in its attempts to control criminality, is an attitude that is more likely to cause problems. Fortunately, as another contributor has pointed out, it is not widespread.

It's not clear if you're accusing me of demonising the military. If so, that would be ironic. I don't know how long you were in uniform, but I do know I have about a decade more personal experience of the military than the vast majority of Brits born after 1940.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Italian armed forces receive some sort of training in civil policing duties; I believe that’s the norm in many countries.

Similarly, some members of the British armed forces receive training in fire-fighting and are used to provide emergency cover when there’s a Fire Brigades industrial dispute. I don’t think it’s unfairly critical to say that I’d much prefer to know that professional fire-fighters will come to help my family if there should be a fire in our house or if we’re trapped in a car after and accident. I don’t think that’s unfair criticism of the military, just a reflection of the obvious fact that we all want the people providing emergency services to be well-experienced and trained to the highest possible standards.

I didn’t serve in the Italian armed forces and so I will accept it is possible - as you seem to suggest - that the Italian Army is better trained in civil policing than the many different varieties of Italian police. If you assert it to be so, I'd even accept it's possible the Italian military may have a higher regard for civil rights than the Italian police.

Still, there are a number of very good reasons why most countries make a clear distinction between the military and the police and why - in most places - the armed forces undertake policing duties in their home country only under the gravest of circumstances. If I hadn't already accepted the fact that Italy is a very different sort of place, I would be concerned that the government apparently believes the deployment of the military on the streets is justified due to the current state of public order. As it is, it looks to me like nothing more than political posturing by a newish government which needs to be seen to be doing something.

But I suspect Marco and others here would rightly suggest that sort of cynical indifference is precisely the sort of attitude which allows tyranny to creep in.

Al

[barn_elms]

"the training and ethos of the Italian military was more along the lines of attack, defence and, to put it crudely, killing people as efficiently as possible."

Having served in a CIMIC (civilian/military cooperation) role out of the same HQ in Iraq as the Italian army in 2005, I have a high regard for their professionalism (and compassion) and would certainly regard your statement as, to an extent, demonising them. Your previous military experiences may have given you your particular perspective, but the modern armies that constitute NATO peacekeeping forces regard working in support of civilian communities as vital to their overall role. If that then translates into a similar role in their own country, then I for one am not going to condemn them or the politicians that decide the circumstances warrant it. But I suspect that your views are immutable...

[Cat Bauer]

Originally Posted by marco

is berlusconi the new mussollini
ANSA.it - News in English - Soldiers to patrol Italian cities
or has society in italian cities broken down so much that they need to use the military for everyday policing??

That link's not working for me, Marco. Here in Venice, we've got the Carabinieri, the Guardia di Finanza, the Polizia Municipale, and the Polizia di Stato cruising up and down the Grand Canal constantly. Are they thinking about adding another form of police?

[Noma]

Not thinking about- it's a done deal.

[AllanMason]

Originally Posted by Cat Bauer

Here in Venice, we've got the Carabinieri, the Guardia di Finanza, the Polizia Municipale, and the Polizia di Stato cruising up and down the Grand Canal constantly. Are they thinking about adding another form of police?

Please don't forget about the Guardia Forestale, the Polizia di Frontiera, the Capitaneria di Porto, the Polizia Penitenziaria, the Polizia Stradale and (my favourites) the Polizia Postale. While the peculiarities of Venice mean it would probably be difficult for even an Italian burueacrat to justify posting some of those froces there, they each and every one make a valuable contribution toward ensuring that Italy is a safe, secure and law-abiding society.

Al