Car registration.

[lombardia2007]

Hi Antonella,

Thanks for the info about sending the tax disc directly to Italy - I might well consider that, but I don't have faith in the post here, especially since my letter box is outside the flats where I live and anyone can put their fingers in and get the mail! It's not that I live in a busy street; it's a quiet area, but still!

So, I think it may well be better for me to get it sent by my UK contact by registered mail, as I don't think the DVLA will stump up the extra £4 in recorded post costs!

My car is RHD, 10 years old (although low mileage!), and I don't think anyone would want to buy it here in Italy. So it looks like the best (most legal) solution for me is to take it back to the UK before the 6 months runs out, sell it there, and come back and buy and buy an Italian car, as registering it on Italian plates is likely to cost in the region of 450-600 Euro, and since it's an old and low value car, also being RHD, in addition to having a large engine and likely to cost a small fortune to insure on Italian insurance, as well as a relatively high Italian road tax, I don't think it's worth it, and getting a small sized engine Italian runabout seems to be a better option.


All the best

[Andy P]

Hi there all, thanks for the info, I should have made myself clear though.My car a 4x4 Pajero is LHD bought in the Uk, its 4 years old now.Would like to make it legal in Italy and then part ex it for a newer vehicle

[liketheroman]

Hmmm, alot of misinformation here:

Firstly if you still have residence in another country, it is legal to continue to have a car registered there

Even if not, the issue is still grey because by definition the car has to be registered in the other country and as long as the vehicle absents itself once a year it is not permanently in the first country.

When people quote European law, they are quite right about its supremacy but they forget that since it is top down broken legislation versus bottom up on many occasions the reality of being able to show an offence has been committed and more importantly the issues of jurisdiction are not sorted out.

As for the absolute quote about insurers not being able to insure you. That really is not true. An insurer is for the most part free to provide policies on his own terms and it is up to you to abide by the law. They write policies, it is simply not their responsibility.

[lombardia2007]

liketheroman: Hmmm, alot of misinformation here

Not from me though

liketheroman: Firstly if you still have residence in another country, it is legal to continue to have a car registered there

For upto 12 months under UK Law: the DVLA states that if a vehicle leaves the UK for over a year it is classed as a "Permanent Export", and the relevant documents must be satisfied (DVLA form V526):

Taking your vehicle abroad for more than 12 months (permanent export)
If you are taking your vehicle out of Great Britain permanently you must notify DVLA. If you have a registration document (V5) you can do this by completing section C to show the intended date of export. The V5 should then be returned to DVLA or to a DVLA local office. In its place you will receive a certificate of permanent export (V561) as confirmation of your vehicle's registration.

If you have a registration certificate (V5C) then you must notify export on the purple section (V5C/4). You must take your registration certificate with you as you may have to hand it over to the relevant authority when the vehicle is registered abroad.

Further information on this subject, including advice on taking a vehicle to Northern Ireland, can be found in leaflet V526 'Taking your vehicle out of the country'.

Taking a vehicle out of the UK both temporarily or permanently : Directgov - Motoring

liketheroman: Even if not, the issue is still grey because by definition the car has to be registered in the other country and as long as the vehicle absents itself once a year it is not permanently in the first country.

I don't see how it's a grey area, as if the vehicle is out of the UK for 12 months or more, it's no longer allowed to be registered as a UK vehicle. (Of course, if you return for one day in that 12 months, the 12 months starts again). Whatever country you're living in when that 12 months runs out is the country where you need to register it in.

What this means is if you take a UK registered vehicle out of the UK, for example, to Italy for 6 months, then France for 6 months, then Germany for 6 months, you have not broken any laws, but after a year you must declare the vehicle permanently exported from the UK, and in this example it would be Germany where you would need to register it.

liketheroman: When people quote European law, they are quite right about its supremacy but they forget that since it is top down broken legislation versus bottom up on many occasions the reality of being able to show an offence has been committed and more importantly the issues of jurisdiction are not sorted out.

Proving an offence has been committed can be difficult to prove, and people do try and flaunt the law, but police can ask for evidence, for example, when you last left the UK, in the form of a ferry ticket, or channel tunnel ticket.

Going from one central European country to another is more difficult to prove, especially since no border checks are now made, but if stopped and questioned, the police could ask for residency documents, etc, to prove timescales.

However, in reality, many people get away with it, but it's possible to get caught out if you don't have the right documents/story when stopped and questioned.

The law is the same throughout the EU regardless of local jurisdiction though - 6 months max in one country, apart from the country where the vehicle is registered.

liketheroman: As for the absolute quote about insurers not being able to insure you. That really is not true. An insurer is for the most part free to provide policies on his own terms and it is up to you to abide by the law. They write policies, it is simply not their responsibility.

Insurance companies may well 'insure' a UK registered vehicle in Europe, but in reality, unless the vehicle is 100% legal in its registered country, the insurance can be deemed to be worthless, as it doesn't comply with the law, i.e. EU Law, and I've heard of many cases where insurance companies (e.g. European versions of Direct Line) have taken money from people and told them that the local version of the MOT is fine. However, when these people have come to make a claim, they haven't been paid out because the vehicle was illegal. So the 'insurance' document isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It may keep you out of trouble with the police if they stop and check your documents (unless the police officer in question was really on the ball, which is unlikely), but instead of paying a foreign insurance company a huge sum for that privilege, why not just lie to a UK insurance company and say you live in the UK, therefore paying probably about a third of the premium, and if you do have a crash, just tell the UK insurance company that you were on holiday when the crash happened, therefore your claim actually gets paid - as it's extremely unlikely for them to suspect or investigate that you're living outside the UK, unless it was part of a criminal case.

Under EU Law, (UK) insurance companies are obliged to give you the minimum cover legally required in the EU (i.e. third party only), and you don't have to tell the insurance company "you're going on holiday" for this to apply - telling them you're 'going on holiday' will often get you full cover under your UK policy, as if you were driving in the UK, for between 1 and 3 months, depending on the insurance company and policy, but after that you get minimum legal cover anyway.

[liketheroman]

Originally Posted by lombardia2007

Not from me though

Well actually yes. EU directive 83/182 is specifically concerned with taxes and no other matter. Interestingly on this one you fall into the juridiction trap. Once your six months are up, how do you get taxed, the car is not registered in the new country, it is not its home, it is not always there. Additionally 1983 was a long time ago and a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, there are at least a dozen directives on the subject.

Please provide evidence of Brits in Spain and Poles being the worst offenders and details of any convictions please.

Yet again, insurance. If your insurer writes you a policy then they are bound by the terms, its that simple. I am in the business of Expat insurance and I would crazy to sell duff policies plus contravening my regulation status. You breaking the law or not is another matter. I am also not sure why you would describe 'foreign' policies as being more expensive, sometimes they are and sometimes not. Whereas your suggestion that it would save you money to your insurance company is nuts, that does invalidate a policy.

I never know why this area of debate on rather a dry subject causes such feelings. If you are not happy with doing something in a particular way, dont do it, no one wants to convince you.

[lombardia2007]

liketheroman:Well actually yes. EU directive 83/182 is specifically concerned with taxes and no other matter. Interestingly on this one you fall into the juridiction trap. Once your six months are up, how do you get taxed, the car is not registered in the new country, it is not its home, it is not always there. Additionally 1983 was a long time ago and a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, there are at least a dozen directives on the subject.

I got the info from the bbc website:

"The law in question is directive 83/182 of 1983, which says that a person resident in one EU country can keep a car for up to six months in another EU country before having to pay that country's car taxes."

from this news report: BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Greece accused of illegal car seizures

I did a little bit of research and it's a general directive dealing with taxes, which still applies, despite being passed in 1983.

liketheroman: Please provide evidence of Brits in Spain and Poles being the worst offenders and details of any convictions please.

Well that depends on what you call evidence. I am going off what I have read online by ordinary people, who didn't take photographs for 'evidence', but I trust that what they say was true, and I have also seen many Polish vehicles in the UK, which have been there for at least 6 months.

For example, many people using UK registered vehicles in the South East of Spain, with UK tax discs mostly out of date, some upto 5 years old, and people knowing they don't have insurance or MOT, with the vehicles very likely being unroadworthy and dangerous.

And someone breaking the law, and being caught for it (and therefore convicted) are totally separate things - the people in question of breaking the law were not caught and therefore not convicted.

liketheroman: Yet again, insurance. If your insurer writes you a policy then they are bound by the terms, its that simple.

To be pedantic, they could write that by taking out this policy you automatically become king or queen of England: it doesn't make it true though as the law overrides whatever a private company tells you.

liketheroman: I am in the business of Expat insurance and I would crazy to sell duff policies plus contravening my regulation status.

That's good that you are doing things correctly, but many others, for example Direct Line Spain, have not, and I would bet are still not.

liketheroman: You breaking the law or not is another matter.

You may be inclined to pay out on an illegal vehicle, but many insurance companies will not, despite whether they sold you the policy saying everything would be ok (sales targets, sales representatives not knowing the law, etc)

I am also not sure why you would describe 'foreign' policies as being more expensive, sometimes they are and sometimes not.

Well, I'd say in 99% of cases they are, especially in somewhere like Italy. For example, my car is about £300 a year in the UK, and I can say with certainty that no-one else would give me that quote on a UK registered car in Italy. For example, Stuart Collins in the UK quoted around £650 when I asked them for a quote.

liketheroman: Whereas your suggestion that it would save you money to your insurance company is nuts, that does invalidate a policy.

I'm not sure what you mean here, maybe you could reiterate this sentence?

liketheroman: I never know why this area of debate on rather a dry subject causes such feelings. If you are not happy with doing something in a particular way, dont do it, no one wants to convince you.

There are no particular feelings associated with this, I just think it's important people have the facts to hand so that they know if they're breaking the law, as many people genuinely do not know it seems, and others do know and choose to break the law, but either way, correct knowledge is a good thing, and misinformation is not good.


By the way, your original answer on page 1 of this thread was technically correct, but fails to take into account that many people have not been paid out following a claim, despite being 'insured' or not, as they were not legal - i.e. didn't have UK MOT and UK road tax, thus invalidating the insurance.

gradese: if I leave it on UK plates, which would be the easiest thing to do, I'll still have to go back to the UK to mot it because otherwise I won't be able to renew the road tax. Or am I missing something?

liketheroman: there are people who dont bother because they never take them to the UK, insurers will insure you just the same as long as you keep the car maintained

You should have also pointed out that after 12 months out of the UK ("they never take them to the UK"), they are legally obliged to Permanently Export the vehicle from the UK, otherwise they are breaking the law too, and I just want to make sure people living as expats in Europe know what they're legal obligations are.

[lombardia2007]

N.B. If the police do catch you with an illegal vehicle in Europe, they can give you a big fine and confiscate the vehicle....you have, at least, been warned!

[liketheroman]

I am speechless

You know nothing about this subject yet write long posts on it.

The only external evidence you provide is actually in relation to the Greeks actually NOT applying the directive. The Greek government is by far the biggest infringer of EC law (France is the biggest numerically but is a far larger country)

You provide only observational evidence for your slant against Poles and Brits. This I dont like.

Your cost of insurance statement is meaningless, a 12 month green card provider is hardly market indicative.

I could go on but dont want to end up with another long post.

You say you want to explain the law and the facts well be very very careful, you need to know them well first.

[lombardia2007]

liketheroman: You know nothing about this subject

- I'd say I know more than most people on the subject

The only external evidence you provide is actually in relation to the Greeks actually NOT applying the directive

- The point was, I quoted the directive from the BBC website, whom I would presume would have researched the directive before posting it on their website. That is a general EU directive number, but is relevant. To find other relevant EU directive numbers would be time consuming and not necessary, since I have already researched and quoted from the main European Commission website on the issue, and the information I posted was correct.

You provide only observational evidence for your slant against Poles and Brits

- You must be aware that many people from these 2 nationalities are regularly breaking EU law. Going to Spain and the UK and taking photographs and gathering 'solid evidence' on these individuals/vehicles would be a waste of time in proving this point, as it's common knowledge it's going on, and there are enough posts on various websites to back this up.

Your cost of insurance statement is meaningless

- My cost of insurance statement shows that it's a lot cheaper to lie about your car being resident in the UK and getting insurance for living and having a UK registered car in Europe. How else can I make a comparison? If I asked, the 'expat insurers' in Europe and the US could also not provide an equivalent or cheaper quote for me, of £300, for example.

As an insurer, how much would you roughly quote an old standard family sized car in Italy with at least 5 years no claims bonus, no accidents or claims, no points on license and just short of middle aged (with a male sole main driver)?

a 12 month green card provider is hardly market indicative

- Why is it not market indicative? 'Expat' insurance companies like yours provide similar quotes to Stuart Collins, for example.


- Whether a '12 month green card provider' or not, they provide the cover required by the law, which is what people want when insuring their car:

European Commission website: You are obliged by law to take out insurance against personal injury and material damage caused by your vehicle. This guarantee covers all the passengers in your vehicle including the members of your family. The green card or the insurance certificate issued by your insurer on conclusion of the contract is taken as proof that you have fulfilled your insurance obligations with regard to civil liability for motor vehicles.

European Commission - Your Europe - Citizens - Car insurance

I could go on

If you've got something else to say, then please do, as then maybe more people can learn from your knowledge

You say you want to explain the law and the facts well be very very careful, you need to know them well first.

I've quoted from the European Commission website, the DVLA and other authoritative bodies. How could I be more careful? I think people reading this thread now, and in the future when they do a Google search, will be much more informed, and in one place, than a lot of the info floating around

[adriatica]

nice to see such a lively debate about something other than houses and also to see like the roman at last reveal what he does here....

lomb... etc cannot spell sorry ... i think you run up against the same problem as i do when i talk about house purchase... everyone likes to get away with things,,, and then they are the ones to complain loudest when things go wrong...

without the exact knowledge that you have i would say everything you quote is undoubtedley almost certainly logically true .. you would be an idiot to think otherwise.... like the roman always resorts to bluster when hes wrong...and most probabley knows he is... law is law ...human nature is the problem trying to get around it... it would be so easy to just drive the old banger back to the UK before everything runs out...but there again you could save a penny or two...

much the same as house bargains which in all essence do not ring true... but the mistakes cost a whole lot more

well done for putting it all straight.. but we all make our choices ... best not to be right on here... people prefer to do things that they think will let them get away with at least one time in their lives putting one over...what ??? not sure really.. themselves