catastal categories, values & pools

[pigro]

I've seen various stuff on this across numerous threads, but no one thread fully covers all the questions below, so here goes ...

It's often suggested that a detached house with a pool is automatically classified as "luxury", i.e. catastale category A/1. However I've also seen a post (from Sebastiano) saying he thought a pool would automatically classify the house as a "villa", which is A/8.

My own place is a large, modern, detached house (built in 1995). I'd describe it (in laymans terms) as a "villa", but it is currently categorised as A/7 ("Detached House"). Its catastal value is just less than 50% of its approx. market value, and has not changed since I bought the house in 2003.

I will probably have a swimmming pool built within the next 12-18 months, so I'm trying to understand:

1) whether that will likely trigger automatic reclassification of the catastal category purely due to the addition of the pool

2) if so, would it be reclassified to A/1 or A/8 (or would this still be decided by the comune on a case by case basis)

3) if not, I assume that on completion of the approved works, the comune may optionally (?) do a "manual" reassessment. Is that likely in my case, where the catastal value is (I believe) pretty much up to date & within expected "tolerances"?

4) what practical implications would any reclassification have? I know it makes ICI more expensive (but I think that's based not on the catastral category itself but on the rendita catastale?), and I know that A/1 prevents 'prima casa' discount from applying ... is there anything else I should be aware of?

5) As far as I know, the catastal value is derived purely from the rendita catastale (value = (r.c. + 5%) x multiplication factor, where the factor is 120 for any house in the "A" category. That suggests to me that the r.c. is the "base" value, from which all other property values/taxes/classifications are derived. Is there any direct relationship between the catastal category and the rendita catastale within any one specific comune? i.e. on construction of a pool, is it the reassesment of the r.c. of the property that would trigger any change of classification from A/7 to A/8 or A/1?

TIA for any help on this.

[juliancoll]

Would it make any difference if Italy is going to get rid of the ICI tax anyway?

[pigro]

Originally Posted by juliancoll

Would it make any difference if Italy is going to get rid of the ICI tax anyway?

well, I think thats for prima casa (residents) only, which rules me out ... and AFAIK it is still a vague election promise rather than firm policy ... and like I said, I think the tax paid on buying a house is much greater on an A/1 (due to it being ineligible for prima casa discount).

[adriatica]

partly in reply to your question... ICI abolition is not a vague promise it is now due to be made law before June so there will be no ICI on prima casa properties from this year onwards

however there are 2 categories that will still have to pay and that is A1 and A8... there was an interesting prog ..well vaguely ...on this the other night... a thing on catastal values and the obvious villa...refered to as villa in sales talk and in descriptions but called an independent house for valuations... its a common enough type of situation here...in fact there is a minuscule amount...something like 2-3 % of all properties in Italy that are within the higher bracket catastal valuations...when its obvious it should be otherwise...

which might mean that if comunes loose the ICI income on property outside the luxury bracket properties they might well be inclined to go outside their offices and take a good look at the real world ... and see if they can generate a bit of income... so i would be cautious about your "villa with pool" remaining a detached house with large outside bath... saying that it would also be unlikely that the local comune officials most probably living in lux type properties would change things much...they don't want to pay ICI either

[pigro]

Does that mean that A/8 also prevents 'prima casa' tax discount on a purchase? I thought that applied only to A/1.

[Sebastiano]

Originally Posted by adriatica

partly in reply to your question... ICI abolition is not a vague promise it is now due to be made law before June so there will be no ICI on prima casa properties from this year onwards

however there are 2 categories that will still have to pay and that is A1 and A8... there was an interesting prog ..well vaguely ...on this the other night... a thing on catastal values and the obvious villa...refered to as villa in sales talk and in descriptions but called an independent house for valuations... its a common enough type of situation here...in fact there is a minuscule amount...something like 2-3 % of all properties in Italy that are within the higher bracket catastal valuations...when its obvious it should be otherwise...

which might mean that if comunes loose the ICI income on property outside the luxury bracket properties they might well be inclined to go outside their offices and take a good look at the real world ... and see if they can generate a bit of income... so i would be cautious about your "villa with pool" remaining a detached house with large outside bath... saying that it would also be unlikely that the local comune officials most probably living in lux type properties would change things much...they don't want to pay ICI either

according to the agenzia delle entrate here in Ascoli,or at least their interpretation houses with pools will be automatically put into the category of villas ie. subject to ICI.

[adriatica]

pigro heres some heavy reading for you because its not as simple as it seems
go to 2.1 for prima casa

however i hesitate to quote these things because i have a feeling that there will be some changes in the new legislation when they get that set for June so this could all be well out of date in a couple of months time

Il trattamento fiscale degli immobili

[pigro]

I suspect I've discouraged specific answers by rambling in my questions? I'll try again.
A. is the cadastral category derived from rendita catastale, or assessed separately
B. Who actually sets the rendita catastale/catastal category
C. who does any reassesments (presumably a geometra working for the comune?)
D. Would significant improvements to a modern house normally result in an immediate reassessment
E. Does addition of a pool to an A/7 automatically "promote" the category to at least an A/8 (or is this specific to the region/comune)

[pigro]

Originally Posted by adriatica

pigro heres some heavy reading for you because its not as simple as it seems
go to 2.1 for prima casa

however i hesitate to quote these things because i have a feeling that there will be some changes in the new legislation when they get that set for June so this could all be well out of date in a couple of months time

Il trattamento fiscale degli immobili

Thanks Adriatica, our last posts crossed ... was getting a bit impatient because I've asked a couple of fairly complex questions recently which nobody seemed up for answering. Happy to work my way through the doc's, cheers for the help. A quick glance has already shown me one of the things that I was looking for - it mentions 80 m.q. or above as pool dimensions that would class the property as luxury.

In reality it doesn't matter as I'll just ask my Geometra (who also works for my comune too) ... but I always like to know the answer I think he should give before I actually ask him the question :-)

[bosco]

Slightly off the point - but relevant to an earlier worry of Pigro about ICI in another thread as to whether the abolition of prima casa ICI would result in the raising of rates on second homes.

I note today in our local paper (not available online except by subscription) that Berlusconi is now budgeting for a €2 miliardi (extra?) subsidy to the comuni, to compensate for the revenue that they will lose through the abolition.

We shall see how this proceeds.