How to deal with dubious estate agents in the forum

[anne2]

[quote=Charles JosephAs a matter of interest…potential buyers be aware that an agent can use what is called a Contratto per Persona da Nominare. This, in effect, enables the agent to draw up the preliminary contract but reserve the right to insert the final buyer’s name later on, although this has to be done within 3 days of the Atto Pubblico. This is perfectly legal in Italy, although it is speculative because there is no guarantee that the final buyer will actually go ahead.

This means the agent can buy for 10 and sell for 15. In these situations, you can inadvertently allow the agent to act on your behalf, but you are still buying at 15, whereas the agent makes a nice tidy profit. Obviously both vendor and buyer are kept in the dark, otherwise they could object. But because this process is legal, you need to be absolutely sure and you need to have unequivocal proof that the agent is committing any kind of fraud before seeking remedial action.
QUOTE]

Very interesting. We had heard rumours re an agent (English, I am sorry to say) quite near to us in Le Marche who was doing just that, ie buying at 10 selling at 15 and could not work out how she consistently got away with it. Presumably this is what she is up to? So, now we know!!! Clearly a loophole in the law that is easily exploited by the agent, unless you follow Charles advice that is! Only in Italy, could fraud not be fraud!!!

[Charles Joseph]

Anne2

You have raised 2 important points here with regards to:

A) Brits and other non-Italians who are perhaps among some of the worst offenders

B) Areas of divergence between legal systems (previous threads debate this issue).

This postponement of the identification of the person who, in effect, assumes all rights and obligations under the terms of the contract is common in Italy. It is covered by the principle of freedom of contract as per article 1322 of the Civil Code.

Obviously, an overseas buyer who neither speaks Italian nor understands the legal culture of the country is not in the best position to understand his/her rights when it comes to buying immovable property. Like all things, the remedy is really not that difficult, providing people take some necessary precautions. Now, if Il Sole 24 Ore runs a series of articles identifying the risks and providing advice to Italians on how to mitigate them, then this business of doing things the “Italian way” (at least when it comes to property as some proponents would have you believe) is complete and utter nonsense!

Today, as we continue to debate these issues on Forum, there are still far too many people entering into ill prepared agreements and handing over money unnecessarily without knowing where they stand legally.

Just to pick up on what GeorgeS wrote: For the benefit of all potential buyers out there, Italy is still a great place so there’s no need to panic. It just takes a little bit of common sense!

Rob: I guess it most likely happens when you entrust an agent in your own country, working through an Italian Partner, to act on your behalf in all matters concerning the purchase without really knowing anything about 1) the person you are appointing and 2) knowing your rights under Italian law.

[sdoj]

When an agent buys at 10 and sells at 15 who has been defrauded, the buyer or the seller?

[anne2]

Originally Posted by sdoj

When an agent buys at 10 and sells at 15 who has been defrauded, the buyer or the seller?

It would seem under Italian law neither!

However, I doubt any buyer would be terribly impressed to subsequently learn that the seller was actually selling for 10 rather than the 15 they had agreed to pay having been told by the agent that this was the asking price. Also, I doubt any seller would be impressed to hear that the buyer paid 15 rather than the 10 reported by the agent!! It may not be illegal but it must surely be considered dishonest as both buyer and seller are kept in the dark re this extra profit earned by the agent in addition to the commission paid by both parties.

[GuestS]

Originally Posted by anne2

It would seem under Italian law neither!

However, I doubt any buyer would be terribly impressed to subsequently learn that the seller was actually selling for 10 rather than the 15 they had agreed to pay having been told by the agent that this was the asking price. Also, I doubt any seller would be impressed to hear that the buyer paid 15 rather than the 10 reported by the agent!! It may not be illegal but it must surely be considered dishonest as both buyer and seller are kept in the dark re this extra profit earned by the agent in addition to the commission paid by both parties.

Some people would refer to it as Capitalism, rather than "fraud", errm, how much do you py for a pint of milk in your local supermarket, without demanding to know how much they buy it in for ??
I do however agree, it is a bad way to make a profit and relies on the buyer and seller being unable to converse, which is why I wish I had engaged an English speaking solicitor as opposed to going "Italian" as my agent recomended, having "MUG" tattoed on my forehead wasn't fun...

[adriatica]

a question....and where does the notary come in...and his ability to make sure the sale all goes through checking bits and pieces here and there.... i reiterate a point from another posting i made.... do away with notaries and get your own solicitors in.... people place to much faith in that systenm too....

i also would like to thank charles.... know a certain italian house seller hereabouts...who doubles... even triples the price the seller has asked for .... and often wondered how he managed to conceal a real loss to the owner of 100,000 plus euro when it came to paying over money and declared prices at the notaries office.... sad to say he also has his properties advertised on a long lived english site through another agent... who just happens to have recently bought a brand new top quality 4X4.... longevity does not relate to honesty.... it often just means they have more funds available thanks to sharper practices over a longer period to advertise more

[manopello]

I'm confused by this

When I did the compromesso all of the owners turned up at the notaois and I had bankers drafts for the of 20% of the price of the house and cash for one with no bank account which I personally handed over.

How could they not be getting the full price they wanted for the house as they were there to see I handed it over?

[sdoj]

In England, an estate agent is employed by the seller to get the best possible price for their property because it is they who pay the piper. Supposing it were to work the same way in Italy then we would all be buying our houses at 15 - and the vendor would be grateful to the agent for the extra 5 ! QED Charles?

[greatscott]

I have a question. Our home is on the market here in the US. We have an agent
(called the Sellers agent). We work out with them our selling price, which is the
Sellers price. The Sellers price is the only price that can be used. The home with the price is then put on what is called the "Multiple Listing Service" for all to see. The Seller (which would be us.) pays all commissions. If our agent sells our home they get a full 6% of the selling price. If the Buyers agent brings an agreed upon offer in, they split the commission (3% for Buyers agent and 3% for Sellers agent). Nobody but our agent lists our home, but anyone can find our home through our agents website, "Realtors.com" or the "Multiple Listing Service". There can be mutiple offers, and we as the sellers are in complete charge of our own property and nobody can make a profit off of us and get more than their either 3% or 6% (that we pay to them after the sale of the house is complete.) Is this the way it works in the UK? Just curious.

[sdoj]

Originally Posted by greatscott

I have a question. Our home is on the market here in the US. We have an agent
(called the Sellers agent). We work out with them our selling price, which is the
Sellers price. The Sellers price is the only price that can be used. The home with the price is then put on what is called the "Multiple Listing Service" for all to see. The Seller (which would be us.) pays all commissions. If our agent sells our home they get a full 6% of the selling price. If the Buyers agent brings an agreed upon offer in, they split the commission (3% for Buyers agent and 3% for Sellers agent). Nobody but our agent lists our home, but anyone can find our home through our agents website, "Realtors.com" or the "Multiple Listing Service". There can be mutiple offers, and we as the sellers are in complete charge of our own property and nobody can make a profit off of us and get more than their either 3% or 6% (that we pay to them after the sale of the house is complete.) Is this the way it works in the UK? Just curious.

We Limeys are a bit stingier and only the seller pays commission: 1-2% depending whether single or multiple agent, sometimes at the very top end of the market people employ their own agent to help them find a house. But in general we are such a crowded tiny place that it is sufficient to drive around the area where you would like to live and take a note of the "For Sale" boards and go see the agents. I don't know exactly how it works in Italy but it is a land spilling over with all types of agents and mediatore so I guess more like the US system with perhaps someone else in the middle for good luck.