How to deal with dubious estate agents in the forum

[notaio]

[quote=trullomartinafranca][size=3
? Capitalism - if all involved are aware then so be it but it’s the deviousness that I don’t like.


You're right, that's why I talked of "evident fraud".
A profit is fair if parties "play fair".

[Technically Blonde]

Originally Posted by sdoj

In the UK you hear the occasional horror story: typically...old granny dies...dodgy solicitor is executor of the will...sells to his mate (agent's brother-in-law) house straight onto the market with whopping great premium to be divided three ways. The beneficiary of the will (distant nephew of the deceased) who is working on an oil rig somewhere in the ocean is grateful that the nice solicitor took care of it all for him and he charged hardly anything at all!
But in general, it is close to a perfect market in as much as everyone knows what their home is worth and so the opportunities for crooking the seller are far reduced. In rural italy you are dealing with places that are sold very rarely and perhaps where the local economy doesn't provide sufficient for those earning their daily crust there to renovate any of the old rusticos. So how does anyone decide what is the true value? A good honest selling agent would feel your foreign pockets and try to bring as much home for the Rossi's as they could. But in the example that has been used above the price should be closer to 15 than 10, otherwise it is the local who is being short changed and they may well be your neighbours that you will ask to keep the keys and an eye on the place when you are away.

hmmh, the market might be close to perfect in the UK but the process certainly isn't. No committment until exchange takes place, chains breaking further down the line and all sales collapsing in the chain. We're due to exchange on the sale of our UK house tomorrow and today I am having to go collect papers from the local council (last minute requests from buyers solicitor) and deliver them personally to the buyers solicitor to try and make it happen. And there is no guarantee that the exchange will happen. Hopefully it will and then maybe I will sleep at night.

[Charles Joseph]

Local agent gets a telling off by priest...

[Technically Blonde]

Originally Posted by Charles Joseph

Local agent gets a telling off by priest...

:D :D
well that made me laugh, even at the beginning of a very stressful day

[sdoj]

Originally Posted by Technically Blonde

hmmh, the market might be close to perfect in the UK but the process certainly isn't. No committment until exchange takes place, chains breaking further down the line and all sales collapsing in the chain. We're due to exchange on the sale of our UK house tomorrow and today I am having to go collect papers from the local council (last minute requests from buyers solicitor) and deliver them personally to the buyers solicitor to try and make it happen. And there is no guarantee that the exchange will happen. Hopefully it will and then maybe I will sleep at night.

Yes, I agree. I posted in another thread about buying in the UK where I finished off by saying:

When I last purchased a house in England I had a fantasy of kidnapping the families of the vendor's solicitor and my solicitor and keeping them hidden in a cave until the solicitors had completed the conveyance.

My point about the "perfect market" in the UK is that everyone knows the value of their home to within a few percentage points, which is obviously not the case in the more remote parts of Italy.
In cities and towns in Italy everything is valued by the square metre and there seems to be less local variance than you find in London for example where parallel streets 20 yards apart can have vastly different prices.
In GIÀ CONOSCIUTO Cortona or Basolo I imagine the owners know the value of their homes as well as they do in Rock in Cornovaglia. It is just these tumble down rusticos that seem to cause such a lot of excitement in this forum. Perhaps someone with the money of Debeers will buy them ALL up and release them slowly like they do with their diamonds! That will scupper those of us who haven't yet bought.

[bellaepovera]

This thread has been very helpful to me and I have learned alot as I am also trying to sell my home in Italy and the estate agents here just work totally different and have a pian piano attitude. I think I finally found one, not that I am counting on them that much to do anything for me. But when buying a home in Italy it is true you have to have the patience and to put up with all the rules and regs of the Italians. If anyone needs help as I speak perfect Italian and English dont hesitate to ask.

[Dave-ItalianChoice]

I just read this thread and I would like to add a few personal considerations.

First of all in reference to the last post from Bellaepovera if you have a property to sell don’t waste time trying to find the right agent if you don’t know anyone trustworthy simply give the property to list to several agents/agencies. The first who comes up with a buyer and close the deal gets the commission – simple as that.



In reference to people that buys at 10 and sell at 15 there are two incumbent distinctions to make – that no one not even the notaio highlighted – is a real estate investor that organized the deal or an estate agent?

If an estate agent buys a property for 10 and sells it at 15 and he is the estate agent in this deal - this is against the law!! – due to conflict of interest.
The regulation and laws states that an Italian estate agent acts on behalf of both parties, buyer and seller and negotiate between the parties.
Clearly if the estate agent is the seller is against the law because he cannot be an impartial party.

If a real estate investor buys at 10 and sells at 15, he/she is only doing his job. For a real estate investor the most important matter is how quick he/she can sell a property after he/she bought it. The faster the better.
If I had to do a seminar on real estate trading I would recommend the same approach. What is the quickest property trading?
1.Find a property you like negotiate the price you think it’s best and sign an option (a proposta or a Compromesso).
2. Once you have an option to buy the property you have a contract in your hand.
3. Contracts are entities that can be sold.
4. Find a buyer that is happy to purchase the property for the price you ask (usually what you agreed to paid + 30%).

Now in this case the first seller was happy because he got to sell the property he/she was trying to sell, the new buyer is happy because found the property he/she was looking for and at a price he/she is willing to pay (otherwise why would he/she agree to buy it?). The real estate trader is also happy because he/she sold the property before even realize the conveyance therefore saved money on relevant fees. It’s like trading stock options. Someone bought the option to buy a property – do you want to buy that property? First you have to pay the option than the property.

I read about people saying that is difficult to know what the right market value of a rural property is in Italy when you’re used to precisely know what the market value of a property in UK is.
Honestly I’m not very familiar with the UK but I know better the situation in Ireland. In Ireland the estate agent represent only the seller what usually happens? You visit a property that you like and the agent tells you that the asking price is 100K so you make your offer of 110K. After a few days the agent calls back saying that someone else made an offer of 130K. Well to keep it short I’ve see properties going up 60/70K in one week!! Now that I think it’s a doped market! I prefer a market where the estate agent represents no one but try to mediate between the parties - this is the reason why Italians never use a solicitor to buy a property: an agent usually with his own geometra prepare the documentation first and the notary will make sure everything is in order. I never hear about an agent in Italy refusing to put in an offer to the seller lower than the asking price because he/she probably is happy to earn a bit less but brings home a sale. In Ireland I doubt often if all these offers coming in for the property I’m interest are genuine or the agent is just trying to maximize his and his client profit.

It is very difficult to determine the value of a property even for experts, and it’s not just about square metres there so many variables. An apartment in Corso Buoenos Aires in Milan has values if the same one is just in the street off it it’s much of a different story. The value can be emotional too. Imagine you live in an apartment in Milan and your daughter wants to buy an apartment in Milan too so she can stay around you more often. The apartment next door to you goes on the market for sale. Would this apartment have more value to your daughter that she can be just next to you as her plan was or to a random investor?
Now if I’d be the seller of that apartment and I hear you saying the your daughter wants to buy an apartment in the area to be close to you, if I had in mind to ask 100K I’ll give it a go at 110K – it’s normal. Perhaps your daughter wouldn’t mind paying 10K more just to be around you. Perhaps she will have a look around and buy somewhere else for 100K.

How to value the price of a rustico? Most of the even if they have to be completely rebuild have a great value for the fact that buying them you gain the right to build/rebuild in area that you wouldn’t get any planning permission perhaps in protected areas too. Just walk outside estate agency and have a look at prices of an area if you notice a great different from the asking price of the property you want to buy simply ask your agent an explanation.

I think I’ve been too verbose and it’s almost 6am so time to bed?!


.

[manopello]

good post..just what I think too although I'm complety new to this...there are some people who rubbish brits for buying a rustico ...too much work etc etc but as you say if the project is successful then the buyer gets a home in a beautiful situation,perhaps a National Park.What price is that worth?

Becky

[Dave-ItalianChoice]

Originally Posted by manopello

good post..just what I think too although I'm complety new to this...there are some people who rubbish brits for buying a rustico ...too much work etc etc but as you say if the project is successful then the buyer gets a home in a beautiful situation,perhaps a National Park.What price is that worth?

Becky

What price is that worth?
That is a personal question that every one of us would answer differently. Once I read that estate agents don’t sell properties but emotions. Perhaps it's true.
I've seen many people interested in buying places I'd never even consider to bother asking the price to the owner. Il mondo e' bello perche' e' vario they say in Italy: the world is good because people don’t think all alike.

I personally feel it's great that there is lots of interested in these traditional buildings because I value them as a great treasure of Italy and it would be a real shame if we had to lose them forever.
I'm excited that people actually buy them and restore them as they were, keeping the same feeling, same structure, architecture and materials. They should extend the tax brakes for restoration!
I come from north of Italy where the same interest in traditional building was boosted by Italians 25 years ago, most of the had the same problems I read people in this forum experience although they didn’t have internet back then.

I read here that lots of people feel buying ripped off because being Brits, let me explain you something.
I take from you name that you're in Abruzzo so let's use Abruzzo as an example.
Two words about Abruzzo: prices of what you call rusticos have gone up in some areas 400% in the last few year. The first 100% increase was due to the euro (example asking price before the Euro, 20.000.000 Lire - after Euro 20.000Euro). The rest is due to increased interest in the area manly from Brits/Irish/Americans and in a small part driven by interest of people from Rome and Naples.
It's the market law - the request grows and the price grows too.
Remember that most of the owners of this rusticos they're not motivated seller, they don’t need to sell therefore they only sell if they have a good reason for i.e. a nice amount of money.

Two years ago I was talking to the CEO of a company in north of Italy that have a network of estate agencies and they do lots of developments and vacation developments (RTA). I was telling him and to other people what was about to happen in Abruzzo due to the start interest in the area of foreigners. He just said: we know very well we did the same here in the north 25 years ago the only difference is that we didn’t call them casali but baite.

I mentioned this because what I want to highlight is that these "many people" are not ripping off the Brits they just act according with market request. 25 years ago in north of Italy happened the same when people stated to be interested in buying traditional buildings: cascine, baite etc. They were not Brits nor Irish nor Americans but rather Italians that spoke the same language of the sellers and the estate agents. However if they wanted to buy a nice and characteristic cascina, baita,casolare, podere, casale, masseria...(call it like you prefer) they had to pay much more money than they would have paid a few years earlier.

I can also tell you that they experienced you same problems and doubts about their restoration and I can tell by personal experience within my family and relatives.
Oh and back then estate agents were all not registered as there estate agent profession was not even regulated by law.

I’ve been recently interview buy a journalist that is writing an article for an English newspaper and she asked me - after going through problems people might experience in buying a property in Italy for 40 minutes - so how to avoid them all?

I gave it a good thought and the only answer I was coming up with was: you need a good sixth sense. In fairness you have no power on events sometimes but that should not stop you from doing something you like.

In forums there are more people that encountered problems talking and sharing their nightmare experience but I’m sure out there, there are so many more people that are just enjoying their nicely restored rustico so much that are not bothered in posting their experience.
To all the people that are reading and that are considering buying a place in Italy and restore it I say it is great experience and challenge, the reward is high.
With a bit of common sense and another bit of sixth sense most of the times things go smooth. Don’t be prejudicial most of the people out there are genuine and trying to do an honest job. Are there bad apples? I’m sure there are but I still get into my garden and pick them because I love apples; 99.9% of the times I get a good one.
My mum gets bad apples too, she takes out the worse part and use the good part to make her homemade jam. No need to tell it’s yummy.

[Wishful Thinker]

Davide, my friend,

The expression is "one rotten apple spoils the whole barrel"

Its not that getting a good apple is a sort of lottery, but that the one rotten one, put in with the rest, will spoil them all.

In this context it's that where devious/dubious agents are allowed to operate, standards in the property marketing sector can decline generally; and from the buyers perspective, bad experiences can ruin the whole buying/living abroad experience.

I'm sure your mother's apple jam (?) is delicious :) :) :)