Housetrapped In Italy?

[Macy]

Originally Posted by ram

points taken.
But.... there's always a but.... if you dont understand the rules, why cant you either read one of the many books, magazines, even internet forums which explain, or use a British firm to buy the property. These things seem to happen to people who cant be bothered to do the research or think they know best. Caveat emptor and all that. Sorry, that's my gripe over and done with. Back to sweetness and light.

We used a British agent to buy our property and granted they were there to the end to see it through to get their 'cash' paid but when it all went sour as the property was found to be illegal and the telephone hadn't been connected as they said it had, they decided they wanted nothing to do with us. Refused even to give us an invoice. Didn't want to know and didn't want to help. Anybody want there name, let me know, they have definately got a good scam working for them. Nice web site, all the right signs but no after service, nothing, zilch, in fact they really didn't care once they were paid and threatened us with court action if we said anything bad about them publicly!

[Charles Joseph]

[As for undeclaring, it is a fact of life here, so its pointless arguing its illegal or wrong. Everybody DOES do it.

Yes...most people do appear to declare a lower figure because it is part of the tradition here, but this carries risks (not forgetting the penalties for tax evasion if you are caught) especially when neighbours who have pre-emption rights can come along and put a spanner in the works.

[Italianlover]

Originally Posted by ram

points taken.
But.... there's always a but.... if you dont understand the rules, why cant you either read one of the many books, magazines, even internet forums which explain, or use a British firm to buy the property. These things seem to happen to people who cant be bothered to do the research or think they know best. Caveat emptor and all that. Sorry, that's my gripe over and done with. Back to sweetness and light.

why would a british company be more suitable to buy an ITALIAN property??

wouldnt it make more sense to use an italian estate agent, whose ativity is also regulated by the government, rather than an english cowboy, "wannabe" estate agent who has only turned into a "property consultant" after moving to italy and finding out that he could not get any other job because of limited knowledge of italian language???

in our case, we are using a reputable italian estate agent (www.gabetti.it), a reputable italian law firm (www.giambronelaw.co.uk) plus a lot of common sense, and everything seems to be going quite well! ;)


and by the way, we are buying a trullo!! so not all trullos purchases turn into nightmares, although this is our third attempt! :D

{we already had to purchases falling through because of problems with the trullos which we liked}

[Rob]

Italianlover,
oh, you are so naive my little amore. Where do you get the idea that the "Goverment regulates estate agents".
Ask me about 'Housearounditalty'.
Saluti
Rob

[Charles Joseph]

Originally Posted by Rob

Italianlover,
oh, you are so naive my little amore. Where do you get the idea that the "Goverment regulates estate agents".
Ask me about 'Housearounditalty'.
Saluti
Rob

Rob...

Have mentioned this on Forum a number of times. When you trawl through books on the subject of mediazione, there is a lot of rhetoric. But the problem is that there is no effective system of governance and hence the rise of the cowboy class.

Even industry organisations such as FIAIP and FIMAA continue to battle against abusivismo...but it still goes on.

I am aware of a number of people in the Marche who operate illegally (most of the worst offenders are non-Italians) and do not provide any form of support, mainly because they are not technically qualified to do so, despite claims that they are (so called project managers for example who can't even switch on a boiler, let alone manage a renovation project). Do people really want to place their properties in the hands of such unprofessional operators? I speak from experience because we have been called in to sort out a number of problems caused by the cowboy and cowgirl class. It is a different matter when you are dealing with a Brit who is a properly qualified builder, carpenter or surveyor for example.

I have also worked with an architect who has surveyed some properties in Abruzzo on my behalf, only to discover a number of legally related snags. In fact, in the architect's professional opinion, these properties should not even be placed on the market. But no matter how much advice is offered, people still throw caution out of the window.

I make the point yet again...be under no illusion. Cowboys just want your money and are not interested in client support. To them, you are polli da spennare!

[ram]

I never said use a British estate agent... I meant an British lawyer specialising in overseas sales such as John Howell.. ( I have no connection with the firm), at least then you have recourse in a British court if they fail to do what they say. And they understand the law and practises in Italy.

As for the rest, We are still talking about the 'real value' of a property...I would say the price the BRits are prepared to pay is not the real value of the property, but an inflated price dreamed up by those who think that all tourists are rolling in money. In my house dealings, I ahve only ever used one agent, who was honest as they come... (but I weeded out a few who I wouldnt touch with a bargepole), otherwise I have dealt directly with the vendor and a notaio. And Ive never had a problem.

Back to undeclaring... yes it does techincally carry penalties and problems, but as long as the declared price is above the rate catastale there shouldnt be a problem. In Sicily the declared price is routinely 25% or less of the purchase price and when you buy a house from a captain in the carabinieri and he is unwilling to raise the declared price, you have to accept that everyone does underdeclare!

[herealready]

Today I have recieved both an email and a phone call from channel 4, suggesting that I may be housetrapped in the sun. Dont know how they got my details but would really like it if they lost them soon.
Firstly it aint sunny and secondly even with this much snow I can get out in my old Land rover.
Not that I want to as the log basket is full, so is the freezer and wine rack.The fire is roaring away, and I am molto contento.
Its just a pity theres nothing GOOD on the telly!

[Rob]

Charles Hi,

I think the thing most of us, reading these threads, regarding buying in italy is, 'who can we put our trust in'.
The days of 'Trust me, i'm a doctor' have long gone,(or has it?) so we need to find WHAT sort of checks we need to use before we go off using them.
For example, is there an institute/association that estate agents/builders etc.,could belong to? You know the sort of thing, regulatory bodies that we in the UK join specically designed to give the customer confidence & control its' members, with the obvious reassurance that if anything goes wrong, you have something/someone to refer to. As you also aware, to join these bodies you have to show your qualifications AND, in my case here in the UK, offer the names of 10 customers the association could write to for a reference. Of those 10, THEY chose 4 they would contact.
So when people asked me for references i just recited MIdiagE, JIB, Guild of Master Craftsmen.
If the estate agent/builder has no such affiliation, then, apart from a solicitor, who do you turn to?
Is it just a case now of the presumtion that WHATEVER you are setting out to do there'll be some smart arse somewhere trying to trip you up. The cynical view perhaps.

Charles, if an estate agency can be setup with ONE director only holding a licence to trade. Can they then legally employ as many 'Agents' as they like and do these 'Agents' have to have any formal training at all?
Or do they get round it by not employing them, but work as self employed freelance agents? I ask because every one of the 'Agents' we were exposed to honestly had little or no clue about the house they were showing us.
They couldn't answer the most elementary of questions, never mind any subtle nuances like 'how do you turn the water on?'.
Rob

[adriatica]

rob.... very wise words....

i believe the person to turn to is linda travella.... who is or was until very recently the president of the association(proffesional) of european estate agents... i think she runs casa travella ...this obviously has to be better than most as she is the president of the governing body.... and they must obviously be the best most trusted estate agency in italy... i believe her son runs it... in the past i think she was some sort of property guru for this magasine...is it travella or tavella...anyway whatever

to become an estate agent here requires you to know someone in the chamber of commerce who will allow you to pass the exam.... the national estate agent bodies here have been trying to take control away from them with little success...i also am not really sure that it would do much good as most probably the reason is to limit any competition in any case...


however i have posted on this before ...there are viable options to the internet .... use them as a research tool ...even visit some of the houses and then visit some italian agencies and you might well spot the difference....

obviously this is hard for those of you who have no italian at all... but in all honesty if you see a house which you like then hand the deal over to one of the uk/italian lawyer people... its most probably the best way of attempting to buy anywhere here.... they have already built up a good portfolio of agents that obviously are less than honest...they can research a price database initially to work out if the price is within the realms of sanity... and check.monitor the whole deal....

late advice for those that have already found themselves in difficulty with registered agents.... but forget about registered or not... there is no security in it either way...

i do believe one agency here in abruzzo only got registered after my italian father in law got on to them about how we were being treated and spoke to the chamber of commerce... they are now still in bussiness...registered but from various pm s and emails i would suggest thier practice has not changed

... charles is right .. there are governing bodies... a good question might be how many registered estate agents have been thrown off the books through registered complaints.... the answer will most probably be zero....

[Charles Joseph]

Rob…

Am glad you raised this one for trust is very important. And so is professional integrity!

To answer your questions:

1) In Italy you have FIAIP (FEDERAZIONE ITALIANA AGENTI IMMOBILIARI PROFESSIONALI) and FIMAA (FEDERAZIONE ITALIANA MEDIATORI AGENTI D’AFFARI). But not all agents belong to these organisations.

You’ve also got the CAMERA DI COMMERCIO and the MINISTERO DELL’INDUSTRIA e COMMERCIO. Contractors should be registered at the REGISTRO DI IMPRESE.

The question is: are the accepted and practiced methods some of these organisations use to set standards of performance acceptable or not? Judging by the relatively poor performance of some organisations and individuals operating in real estate, together with their debatable morals, maybe not. However, in fairness to these regulatory bodies, perhaps the root of the problem stems from the fact that there are certain unconquered loopholes in the law. For example, a friend of mine has a chain of professional real estate agencies in Tuscany. There is a consulente immobiliare right next door to one of his offices. However, this organisation is permitted to trade because it provides consultancy. It is not operating as an estate agent. This is just one of the many conundrums of Italy’s legal culture.

2) An estate agency can be set up as a company or with one person being iscritto nel ruolo. In fact, at one stage there were problems with the interpretation of this category since either a person or a company could be iscritto. The problem has now been eliminated by a ministerial decree removing areas of divergence that previously existed between legislation 39/1989 and regulation 452/1990.

This means that your company Rob S.r.l. can be iscritto nel ruolo for example, although you as MD or legal representative will have to sit and pass the exam. You can employ people to work for you but they don’t necessarily have to be iscritti nel ruolo. Moreover, you can also have a network of freelance people working away in the background to provide you with clients and again, they don’t necessarily need to be iscritti nel ruolo. Since you are the only person iscritto, you are the only one legally (article 1755 of the Civil Code refers) entitled to receive a commission (provvigione) for every successful transaction. The freelancer who has just brought you a client and closed the sale will expect some financial reward and will most likely invoice you for consultancy services.

Know what you mean about turning the water on. I know of one so-called property management company operating in the Marche whose head honcho complained that the heating system in a client’s property was faulty. When we went to have a look we found that the main trip switch was in the off position!